podcast

College of Humanities and Social Sciences

Strategic Direction

Podcast Ep 59 - Cybersecurity and the global threats of tomorrow

Sarah Holland — Fri, 05 Jul 2024 14:36:52 +0000

Podcast Ep 59 - Cybersecurity and the global threats of tomorrow Sarah Holland Fri, 07/05/2024 - 10:36

Jamil Jaffer, founder and executive director of the National Security Institute and assistant professor of law at ��ӽ紫ý's Antonin Scalia Law School, knows better than anyone the growing threats to national security during these rapidly changing times.

In this fast-paced episode of Access to Excellence, Jaffer and ��ӽ紫ý President Gregory Washington discuss the U.S.'s position on the global stage, the power of the American Dream, and what we as citizens can do to start solving some of the country's stickiest problems.

Listen to this episode:

^{[If] we want to think about how to fix our problems in the world, it begins here at home. It begins with voting. Voting every day. It is a crime that half the American people that could vote don't register. It's a crime that half those that are registered don't vote. Take responsibility. All our young people that are listening to this here at ��ӽ紫ý: every single one of you must register to vote. You wanna go protest? Go protest. But vote. Because at the end of the day, this isn't about Republican/Democrat. This is about America. This is about a vision. This is about a dream. This is about the ideals that we have in this country. And they are the right ones, and we are called to this mission. We have been since our founding and we still are today, no matter how hard it is." - Jamil Jaffer}

Read the Transcript

Narrator: Trailblazers and research, innovators and technology, and those who simply have a good story. All make up the fabric that is ��ӽ紫ý. We're taking on the grand challenges that face our students, graduates, and higher education is our mission and our passion. Hosted by Mason President Gregory Washington, this is the Access to Excellence podcast.

Gregory Washington: We certainly live in challenging times. as the U.S. navigates complex national security and cybersecurity issues abroad, as well as rising tensions on our own soil. We've got wars in the Middle East and Ukraine, rising tensions between the U.S. and Israel over Israel's handling of the war with Hamas, worries about an expansionist China in Taiwan and in the South China Sea, threats from Iran and North Korea. And a recent Microsoft analysis said that Russia, China, and Iran will likely ramp up new sophisticated interference efforts ahead of our 2024 elections. And believe me, that is scratching the surface.

So let's dive deeper with ��ӽ紫ý's Jamil Jaffer, one of the most foremost experts on national security, foreign relations, cybersecurity, and counterintelligence in the country to bring this all into context. An assistance professor of law at ��ӽ紫ý's Antonin Scalia School of Law, Jaffer is director of the National Security Law and Policy Program and the Cyber Intelligence and National Security Programs. He is also the founder and executive director of the National Security Institute. Jamil, welcome to the show.

Jamil Jaffer: I’m thrilled to be here, President Washington.

I've been looking forward to this one for quite some time. So I want to familiarize the audience with you and what you do. So for those of us who don't know what the National Security Institute does and why it exists, can you give us a little overview?

Of course. It's an academic center at the Scalia Law School here at ��ӽ紫ý. We aim to teach young people, graduates of undergrad institutions, that are receiving a JM, a Juris Master's degree, a JD, a Juris Doctor degree, or an advanced degree in law, an LLM, in Cyber Intelligence and National Security.

We aim to give them a well-rounded, deep education in these issues that spans the scope of foreign relations, cybersecurity, intelligence, national security, and a real deep understanding of the law and a deep analysis of the law.

And in addition to being an academic center, we're also something of a think tank. We advocate, we discuss, we debate ideas. We have a broad group of experts from industry, from government, a lot of former government officials from across the political spectrum. But people that I think believe that America ought to lead in the world, lean forward, be the strongest ally to its friends, be the fiercest foe to its enemies, and be president active, right? The classic way that we've always thought about America from the bulk of our history of you, by the way, President's on the run in large part today.

Washington: Yeah, I hear you, man. I love what you're talking. So give us an idea of the size of your org.

Jaffer: So, you know, when we talk about our advisory board, we've got about 60-70 advisory board members. These are senior, former government officials. These are folks that serve in Senate confirmed positions and the like.

And then we've got about over 100 fellows that are, the folks who volunteer with us, who write, who advocate, who talk, who debate issues and ideas of our students. We've got about a dozen or so, maybe a little more than a dozen faculty members that teach students, adjuncts at the law school. And all these folks are around campus. They're in Arlington. They're out here in Fairfax. They're talking about the issues today. They're on television. They're in four committees of Congress.

And a lot of them are going into government, into the administrations. We sent six of our advisory board members to the Trump administration. All women, interestingly enough, in Senate-confirmed positions. Eight to the Biden administration already. And more to come, I think, as the years go forward.

Washington: Outstanding. Outstanding. So you've given a whole bunch of metrics here. How do you measure success?

Jaffer: Look, I think at the end of the day, when you're thinking about success in an academic institution, as you well know, I mean, this is your world. It's about the students you educate, the people you put out into the world, the values and education you give them, the skill set they come with, and the work that they bring to bear on what they do in their jobs.

Now, beyond that, we also look at the impact we have in the policy space as well, right? Are we moving the ball up on Capitol Hill? Are we convinced people that this vision of America is the right one? Because, as we talked about earlier, you know, back when I was growning up, right? My father went out to UC Irvine. I remember when UC Irvine, where you used to be, was a one building campus.

We went out there. My dad was in the chemistry department at UCLA. They were trying to get them to come to UCI. We come out there and it's all farmland, right? But back of that era, there was no debate about America's role in the world. Everyone understood. America was the beacon of hope for the world, right? That is not how we view ourselves today. And I worry about that. I worry about a world devoid of American leadership.

Washington: Is that not how we view ourselves, or is that not how others view us?

Jaffer: I think it's both, President Washington. I think it's how people view us because we don't view ourselves that way. We talk about leading from behind. We talk about other people leading in the front. The truth is, we are a world superpower. We've forgotten that here at home, and we don't believe that we can behave that way.

Now, look, when we were a superpower, we acted like a superpower, there were things we did wrong. I don't suggest it was all unvarnished good. At the same time, if you wonder what a world devoid of American leadership looks like, all you need to do is look around the globe right now. You ran down a list. A war in Ukraine, a war in the heart of Europe, a war in the heart of the Middle East, a budding war in Asia, right?

Washington: That’s right.

Jaffer: Terrorists circling the globe, right? This is what a world devoid of American leadership looks like. Chaos.

Washington: No, I agree with you 100%. So you've spoken at length here, but elsewhere, about there being this global pushback against the U.S. being so forward-facing and being in the front in the world. How does this perceive pushback against the U.S. being a front-facing power, being a lead power, being the global superpower, harm us in the cyber domain?

Jaffer: Well, I think in particular the cyber domain, where we don't lean forward, what we see is our adversaries taking advantage. So we've seen billions, maybe even trillions of dollars net walk out the backdoor of intellectual property, built in America, ideas, designed in universities like here in R1 institution like ��ӽ紫ý, that have gone out into practice being stolen by China and repurpose for economic purposes. in that country. Trillions of dollars in total, billions of dollars every single year over the last decade and even longer.

My former boss, General Keith Alexander, the former director of the NSA, said it was the greatest transfer of wealth in modern human history and I think he was exactly right. But that's just one element of it. You see the Russians, you see the Chinese, you see the Iranians getting into our systems. They're stoking very real divides that are real in American society. But they're throwing gasoline on the fire. They're lighting it up.

Washington: That’s exactly right.

Jaffer: And so they're using our own unwillingness to push back in the cyber domain and exploit it. And the worry that I have about that is, look, we know they're baiting our elections. We know they're stealing our IP. What happens when they make a tactical blunder and they make a mistake because they're trying to see how far they can push us because we're not pushing back? They push us too far and then they make a mistake, something bad happens. And now we have to respond. That's what I worry about. I worry about them making a mistake because we haven't set clear red lines and enforced them.

Washington: No, that's a good point. You know, when you think about it, you talked about our IP and the commercialization efforts coming out of our universities, coming out of our companies. It's not necessarily happening just in the cyber domain. In fact, I contend to you the primary capital, and even in the country, is human capital. People are taking those efforts and taking them over to our adversaries and helping our adversaries be more successful against us. Right? It's not necessarily some person on a computer hacking into your system and stealing the plans for the next Boeing 787. It's literally an employee that works at the company that takes those plans.

Jaffer: Right, right.

Washington: And walks them over to an operative and gives the plans to an operative.

Jaffer: That does happen quite often. And what's even worse about it is it's our own policies that drive part of this. We take the world's smartest, their best and brightest. We bring them to core research institutions like ��ӽ紫ý, we educate them. And then we tell them, “Hey, you know what? You can't stay here. You've got to go back to your home country and build your business there.”

It is crazy. I mean, you know, Freeds of Korea said this the other day, I don't agree with Freed on a lot of things, but he said this the other day on TV, he said if you took a stupid system and made it crazy by adding a lottery on top of it, right? Our immigration system is so crazy, right?

I mean, you would think we would do it. The Canadians have got it better. They picked the smartest, best, and brightest. They bring them to Canada, and then they incentivize them to stay and build their businesses and build their lives there.

Washington: That's right.

Jaffer: It is crazy that we don't do that. I mean, you look at the Fortune 100, the vast majority of those businesses built by immigrants to this country. My father came first to Canada and then the United States. $300 in his wallet. Uncle you can stay with nothing else.

Washington: Well, you know, I'll be honest with you. This is a relatively new occurrence, right? There's always been tensions between those individuals who have come into the country and those individuals who've already been here.

Jaffer: Right. You want to pull the ladder up behind them.

Washington: Oh, yeah. It's always been that tension.

Jaffer: Right.

Washington: That's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about policy. I'm talking about infrastructure has always been such that we find a way to allow many of those best and brightest into the country so that they can become successful.

Jaffer: Right.

Washington: And I'm afraid that this is our... one of the first times in our history where we're really, really losing that and we're losing it at a significant clip.

Jaffer: Yeah. I mean, imagine as you had a name for it, I don't know, call it the American dream. I mean, you know, it's...

Washington: [chuckling] Exactly. That, that to me tells you what we were doing.

Jaffer: Right? We literally talked about it. We literally said, you come here, we will give you the incentives to stay and you can build your business here. I mean, look, let's be honest, even today, even as hard as it is in our country, as much of it is political challenges we have, nobody wants to build their business in Beijing or in Moscow or in Tehran, or even in Mexico. They want to build it here in the United States, even with all our challenges. And we tell these people, no, come here, get educated, take the best in our education system at universities like ��ӽ紫ý and then go build it at home. It is literally a crazy system. And it's only because of our own toxic politics that we can't figure out how to solve that. We know this is the problem. We know it's why we're losing the brain drain. It's because we're telling people you have to leave. It's crazy.

Washington: That being said, you travel all across the world, right, and I've been and I know you've been as well. Most of the major continents - all the major continents, but most of the continents in general - there is still... there is no better place to live than where we are currently. They are nice places.

Jaffer: Right.

Washington: There are places with great weather. There are places with great food. There are places with beautiful people. But there aren't better places and I will debate individuals on that context any day. And you start to add up all of the entities that go into just what makes quality of life great. And you see that there are places in this country that stack up with any place else in the world and exceed them by a significant margin.

Jaffer: Absolutely. And the American Dream is still alive here. We may have forgotten it. But the ability to move up is here. You know, my father, we had the chance when I worked for President Bush. At the end of the administration, the President invited people who worked in White House to bring their families to the White House. My parents came in and, you know, you walk into the Oval Office and they take a quick photo. The President says to my dad, he says “Now, Mom, Dad, where are you all from?”

And my dad says “We're from Los Angeles.”

He said “No, no, where's your family from?”

My dad said “Well, you know, our family's from Tanzania.” Right?

And President Bush says ”Well, I bet when you're growing up in Tanzania, dad, I bet you couldn't imagine that your son might one day work for the President of the United States.”

My dad said, “No, Mr. President, that's what makes the country great.”

And the president, that is what makes the country great, that in one generation, you can come from Tanzania to the United States, you can be an American. You can't go to Germany and become a German. You can't go to France and become a Frenchman. It's only you come to America and you become an American. You become part of the dream and become part of the people running the country.

I mean, on national security, a Muslim during the war on terror in the Bush administration with a family from Tanzania, ethnically Indian. Nobody can imagine that. If you were told my parents that, they would have said, you're crazy.

Washington: That's right. That's right.

Jaffer: And we still have that. We forget that we have that. That is still here. As much as we are mad at each other, as much as we argue and debate, we have got to remember this country is called to greatness. It is crazy that we are abandoning that because we can't get along with one another and figure out how to make things work in this country.

Washington: Man, there are so many directions I can go with this. Let's start here. So you've always said that at the end of the day, America leaning forward and being that forward beacon for the world is positive for our national security, our economic security, and for the average American. You want to expand on that?

Jaffer: Yeah. Let's just take one example. There's a big debate today about whether we should support Ukraine in their fight against Russia. And people say, well, I don't understand why we can't get things fixed right at home. We can't fix the border. We can't do this. Why are we're spending all this money over in Ukraine?

Washington: Right.

Jaffer: You know where the bulk of that money is being spent, President Washington? It's being spent right here in America.

Yes, we're sending weapons to Ukraine. But we're buying those weapons from American defense manufacturers, creating American jobs in the United States.

Washington: That’s right.

Jaffer: 95% of that money is spent here in America.

Washington: Right.

Jaffer: For some reason, we can't get past this conversation. People don't understand that basic fact.

Washington: That's exactly right. And it's by and large not Americans who are on the front lines fighting against the Russians. It’s Ukrainians.

Jaffer: Right. We are fighting an adversary, an adversary that hates us, that hates everything we stand for on the backs of others. By the way, as we fought ISIS with the Kurds, right? It wasn't us that we were there in small forces. In Ukraine, we're simply sending weapons and information and training folks. And the idea that we would say to ourselves, oh, no, we should really step back from that and we should focus here at home.

I mean, how many times have we seen this story where America retreats home, retreats from the world thinking it's protected by its two oceans, and then we get hit at home with terrorism? Or we get dragged into a bigger, much worse war: World War I, World War II. We've seen it over and over again, and it's like we can't seem to remember the lessons of just a few years ago.

Washington: That's exactly right. It's like Lucy with the football.

Jaffer: It's Charlie Brown.

Washington: We repeat it over and over and over and over again. And I get it. I understand why, right? We do have challenges at home. We do need to focus on those challenges. And when the national rhetoric and the national discussion focuses on us being engaged elsewhere, I can see where a person would say, well, wait, a minute, but what about me? You know, you're fighting more for the Ukrainian than you're fighting for the American.

Now, I don't believe that's true, but I understand why some would think it, why some would perceive it, because of how social media dominates our worldview and how, not just social media, but how the media in general nominates our worldview.

Jaffer: Yeah, no, I was in Iowa and South Carolina and New Hampshire during this last election cycle, and, you know, talking to average folks. And you're exactly right, that is exactly how they feel. They think Washington, DC is fundamentally broken, that it doesn't have their interests at heart, that it's spending money abroad and not spending money here, and they don't understand why they feel worse off than they did. Name your time, whether it was the previous administration, the one before that, whatever it is. Whichever person you want to blame. You want to blame the big tech companies or social media or, you know, mean Donald Trump or mean Joe Biden, right? Everyone's got a beef.

Washington: That's right.

Jaffer: What people don't have, and what's crazy to me is that belief in America. And it's there. It's inside, and they know it's there. They just have forgotten that they've let this victimization take hold and they don't want to rise up. I mean, this country has always been a country of rising up.

We've had real troubles. We have made huge mistakes as a nation. But what makes America great is our ability to figure that out, learn for those mistakes, and try to get past them. And today we're in retreat. We're saying, oh, well, look at all these mistakes we made and blame each other, blame ourselves.

It's crazy. It's crazy.

Washington: Oh, without question. So if I were to ask you to tell me to step back and say, hey, what are the U.S.'s biggest threats and where are they coming from? What would be your answer to that?

Jaffer: Well, look, I think our long-term, large-scale threat is a rising China, right? And their desire to dominate not just their part of the world, but the globe. They have visions of a long-term empire around the globe. They believe that their oppression of their own people, right? The oppression of the Uyghurs, the Muslim Uyghurs, a million intern in camps, right? Modern-day gulags. Their oppression of democracy in Hong Kong. Their attempts to harass Taiwan. They want to expand that around the globe. And as a long-term threat, that is the real major threat. And we've allowed it to grow. We've addicted ourselves to cheap Chinese goods.

And by the way, it's fine to buy T-shirts from... We don't need a car sales off from T-shirts from China, but buying semiconductors, relying on them for critical minerals, that's crazy. Right?

And then when you add up the fact that China's increasingly cooperating with Russia. You see it in Ukraine. You see Russia and Iran. Iran sending drones to Russia, Russia is sending technology to Iran, right? These countries are now making it very clear of the whole world, how closely they work together, right?

And I don't want to say, use a term like axis of evil or anything that got us into trouble before, but let's be real. Iran, Russia, China, North Korea, they are collaborating, and they're doing it out in the open. You don't need to... it's not behind closed doors.

Washington: Well, they're collaborating because they see, and at least this is my interpretation of it, they see that neither is strong enough or dominant enough to take on the U.S. by themselves. So let's band together.

Jaffer: Right.

Washington: Let's come together because then we have a fighting chance. It's almost an admittance of our relative strength.

Jaffer: No, I think that's right.

Washington: And so one hotspot we don't hear about much nationally that I started to follow here recently as Niger...

Jaffer: Yeah.

Washington: ... where a military coup occurred. The U.S. military is now withdrawing and reports say Russian military advisors, my understanding is Russian military advisors from Progozen, and this is his folk have been brought in. One senior U.S. military advisor told CBS News that the situation was a devastating blow to regional counterterrorism and to our counterterrorism efforts and peace in the region. Can you explain why Niger is such a focal point? What is it about it and why is it important?

Jaffer: Yeah. Well, you know, for a long time, a lot of these terrorist groups operating out of Africa have operated out in Niger in that region. You're talking about Boko Haram. You're talking about what used to be al-Qaeda in the Islamic Maghreb, AQIM, now ISIS and West Africa. You've got a number of groups, JNIM, there's a number of terrorist groups there operating the region, right? And so we've had active counterterrorism operations there for a long time in Mali, in Niger, in Nigeria, working with the governments in Somalia and Ethiopia as well.

And so these counterterrorism efforts have been really important because a lot of these groups at times have gotten interested in not just operating there in Africa, but expanding beyond the borders into Europe and into the United States, trying to affect operations here. Keeping that pressure up has been a really important part of it.

Now, with this coup in Niger, the Russians and the Wagner group is exactly laid out getting in there. They actually are fomenting some of these coups in Chad. They were influential in trying to, trying to remove the government there. And so we see this movement.

And the government there is a junta government, right? As you point out, a coup government? They at one point sort of wrote us a note, said, you need to leave. And then we're like, OK, I mean, if you don't want us here, we'll start packing up. Now there's a conversation, well, maybe, maybe we want you to stay. And so the conversation remains ongoing. The government there in Niger has benefited, both the coup government and the prior elected government was a government- the governments have benefited, the people in Niger benefited from the American presence there. They're not going to benefit when the Russians show up, right? The Russians are there for one purpose to engage and benefit Russian interests. And so we'll see how this plays out.

I do worry, though, that that loss of that counter-terrorism capability will ultimately put the U.S. and our allies at greater risk, not just in Africa, but in Europe and the U.S. as well.

Washington: So I'm going to go there. I'm going to ask you something. I'm going to make a statement here, and I want you to, let's just do a little engagement.

Jaffer: All right.

Washington: Since we're having fun.

Jaffer: I like it. Let's do it.

Washington: All right. Because I believe fundamentally that we are on an arc, a trajectory, and while that trajectory isn't straight up, it's jagged, it kind of oscillates up and down, but there's a trend, and that trend is better, not worse. Let me throw out some things, okay?

Think about a moment in time. The pandemic had just ended. Isolationism was on the rise. There was anti-immigrant sentiment because of fear of other governments, socialism, communism, and the like. It'd been a crackdown on civil liberties. There were new technologies that were being brought into the household that were changing the way Americans think. There were state legislators who were now, with these new influences, felt the need to control curricula, felt the need to control the way in which people were expressing themselves.

If I were to tell you, name that moment in time, you can easily say that that moment in time was today.

Jaffer: Or yesterday or tomorrow.

Washington: That's exactly right, right?

Jaffer: Yeah.

Washington: But that moment in time was 1923. And in addition to those things, because you just had the flu pandemic that it just ended, right?

Jaffer: Yeah.

Washington: Radio was coming into households in a significant way and changing the way of Americans saw the world, right?

But in addition to everything I just highlighted, the KKK had more than six million Americans who had joined their ranks because of anti-crime rhetoric and fear of crime. And that included 10 senators, 30 members of the House of Representatives, and five sitting governors. Right?

And out of the midst of that, out of the midst of that, from 1923, until today, we have seen the greatest accumulation of wealth in the history of the world. You get what I'm saying?

Washington: I do.

Jaffer: And that is still ongoing to this very day. I have three students, two students of mine who graduated. I do some work in AI. They got really good jobs at big tech companies in California. In two years out of graduation, they're both millionaires to this day.

Jaffer: Amazing.

Washington: Right? Now, that's far better than anything I did.

Jaffer: You and me both.

Washington: [laughing] Two years, two years out school.

And so, look, we're living in a time of great peril and fraud, but we're also living in a time of tremendous opportunity and outcomes.

Jaffer: Yeah.

Washington: How do we get people to balance? And how does NSI fit into all of that?

Jaffer: I mean, tremendous opportunity outcomes that we have created in this country. Every major AI company in the world is here in the United States, Open AI, Anthropic, Scale AI, you name it. Every single major technological advancement, including the ones published in a paper just today about how the internal neurons work within large language models. They're using a single layer of neurons to say, okay, we're actually identifying the various things that code for.

Washington: Figuring out how they work.

Jaffer: How they work. That is being discovered here in this country, not in Russia, not in China, not in Europe. Europeans love to pride themselves on, oh, we do this, we do that, right? Let's be real. The reason they don't innovate is because they don't have an economic system like ours. It may be close, but it's not like ours. And they don't give people the opportunity to rise up and rise to the ranks. They continue to maintain that largely class-based system.

We have problems. Don't get me wrong. We are making that middle class smaller, and that's a problem. But we still have opportunity in this country, just to your point, that you raise about your two students.

Washington: Right.

Jaffer: And people forget that. And so we've got to remember. You know, it's easy to think about the immediate moment. I'll admit, I'm probably guilty of it myself, that even this recency bias. That the things happen to me right now is, it's the worst possible.

Washington: But it's not.

Jaffer: It's not.

Washington: And that is the key thing for us to kind of internalize. You know, and I always struggle with whether I should talk about it or not for two reasons. Number one, I want people worried about our problems today. I want them focused on them. I want them engaged on them because, by golly, it can get worse.

Jaffer: Right.

Washington: Right?

Jaffer: We've seen what it looks like in Europe when it gets worse.

Washington: That’s exactly right.

Jaffer: We've seen the rise of fascism. We've seen the rise of communism.

Washington: We've seen it. We've seen it. And secondly, man, we're on such a great trajectory, right?

Jaffer: It’d be crazy to squander it now.

Washington: Yeah.

Jaffer: Be crazy.

Washington: I want us to continue. You know, there have always been adversaries for America. Recently on Bill Mahar's real-time show, Jillian Ted, a member of the Financial Times editorial board, said, and you highlighted this earlier, that the new, “Axis of Evil” is Iran, Russia, and North Korea. China was left out of it, interesting enough. How does that fit into how you see the international picture today?

Jaffer: Well, I think she's certainly right about those three, but I think it's the most telling part is that they left China out.

Washington: [laughs]

Jaffer: And what's funny is the-

Washington: That's the biggest adversary.

Jaffer: It's the biggest adversary. And the Europeans seem to think that- well, here's the bottom line. We don't survive in a real long-term fight with China without the Europeans. And they definitely don't survive without us.

We need to make common cause across the Atlantic. And the idea that the Europeans see us as the problem, right? They literally, they hate American companies coming over there and sell them to their people. They're putting on all these trade barriers in place. And, you know, they put in, you know, GDPR, this law is about privacy. Everyone they sell, it's this amazing privacy law. GDPR ends up getting enforced only against American companies.

Washington: Yeah, isn't something?

Jaffer: The real story is they want to cut American companies down to size because they don't like the fact that we're innovating faster.

Washington: And- that's right. The actual innovation rate is about twice the rate of European companies right now.

Jaffer: Oh, wow.

Washington: I just push back at all of these folk. You hear it in the national rhetoric amongst our politicians about how America is worse than it's ever been and we've got to make America great again. The reality is that America is actually great right now. We got our challenges.

Let me make sure I'm clear. But the country's a great country right now, and you know this by how all our competitor countries are acting. They're acting like we're great. They're banding together. They are figuring out ways to counter American strength and outcomes.

Jaffer: We seem to be the only people in the world who don't realize how great we actually are.

Washington: I agree with you 100%. So I was really fascinated... We're going down a lot of threads here. This is why I love it. I was really, really fascinated by this latest back and forth between Israel and Iran. They launched that attack on Israel on April 13th, and it was incredibly well telegraphed by the U.S. government. Like, we told them it was coming. We knew when it was coming. We knew, you know, pretty much what it was going to look like. We had very, very, very advanced intel, right?

It was almost as if, and I'm stretching, here, but I'm saying anyway, it was almost as if the Iranians told us, we're going to launch the missiles here. Here's what we're going to launch all of them. And, you know, just so you know, we're launching them from right here, and we're going to launch them at about this time. Right?

Talk to me about the security apparatus, the national intelligence infrastructure, and how it was able to basically telegraph that. How would it know?

Jaffer: Well, you know, we have a tremendous number of capabilities, sensors, satellites, and the like, that take pictures that identify threats. But the single most powerful intelligence collection tool that we have today that makes up the bulk of the President's Daily Brief, the most sensitive intelligence product in the U.S. government, is a capability called the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act.

Washington: Ahhh...

Jaffer: It's a law that allows us to collect communications intelligence about foreigners located overseas. So these are non-Americans outside the United States, but we're able to capture it here in the United States. You might say to yourself, I don't understand that. How could we capture the information about foreigners located overseas in the U.S.? It's because we built the world's communications infrastructure. It all comes to the United States.

And so we're able to get tremendously valuable intelligence. And there's this big debate over, well, how do you deal with Americans that might be swept up in the middle of it? And the truth is, every time you collect a phone call, every time with a court order, you're going to get the person calling their dry cleaners or their- or their donut shop or whatever it might be, you know, ordering Chinese food, right?

And the way we deal with that in the normal collection context, we turned that, we turned it on and off. If people ever watch The Wire, right, that great show about cops in Baltimore, you see them turn the listening device on and off.

Washington: Right.

Jaffer: You know, if you watch Casino, right, you see the wives get on the phone. I don't mean to say anything bad. There are plenty of badass, you know, women gangsters, but in the case the casino, the wives get on the phone, pretend to talk about whatever, and then when you hear the FBI click off, they get the things to the bosses and they talk about the dirty stuff, right?

Washington: Right.

Jaffer: So that's how we do it in criminal context, in the foreign intelligence context, because we know that people are going to use code. We know that people are going to run these sort of operations. We listen continuously. We remove out Americans' names, American identifiers, the like. That's how we minimize collection there.

And there's a big debate. Okay, Americans are being collected on what are we going to do. Those are fair debates to have. But the idea that we almost let that entire system stop and it almost expired.

Washington: Well, wait a minute. Now, we renewed it, but only for two years instead of five years.

Jaffer: Right.

Washington: What challenge do you think that has?

Jaffer: It just puts us back in the doom of having to do this over and over and over again. I mean, it's almost like a Russian roulette with our surveillance thing. Congress wants to force themselves to vote again.

Here's the crazy thing about Congress, though. If they want to change the law, they don't have to wait for the two-year reauthorization. They don't wait for the five- year reauthorization. They can do it tomorrow. The problem is they create this cliff for themselves. So they force themselves to re-look at it and debate this thing over and over again.

Be adults. Just do your job. If there's a problem, fix it. There's not a problem. Let it run. Make it permanent. Why do we keep torturing ourselves over and over again, one year, two years.

And you know, by the way, two years is going to be right in the middle of the next administration, whoever that might be. And you know they're going to have an opinion. You know they're going to have an opinion.

Washington: Oh yeah, without question. A viable solution- Every single politician I've talked to, and I've, you know, given where we're located, gotten to spend a significant amount of time with a number of them. But every single politician I talk to say that a viable solution to a problem is to delay a decision on the solution. In other words, kick the can down the road. And that seems like what's happening here.

For those of you who don't know what we're talking about, we're talking about FISA, the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act. And Jamil just really highlighted why it was put into place and in my understanding why its reauthorization is so important.

Jaffer: Well, you know, President Washington, why these politicians get to kick the can down the road? It's because we let them. We voters let them.

Washington: Now, there is one, on this particular issue if I stay focused here, there is some good reason for debate here, right?

Jaffer: Sure.

Washington: And it goes back to a guy named Edward Snowden, right? A good bit of what we see, the issues around the use of FISA, right? The use of surveillance really involved, not just foreign actors, but also involved Americans. And now it becomes a little difficult to how you use- relative to how you use these tools. Because we're so globalized, right? Is an adversary who is in Russia as much of a threat to us as an American who's been radicalized and who is now working on behalf of Russia, right? Both of them can cause you damage. FISA was created for one, right? But the other, we don't have as many protections against. And I understand why it's been confused, but can you talk a little bit about it?

Jaffer: Yeah. So, you know, Edward Snowden, part of the story is a really important one. So Edward Snowden, when he stole the classified information that he was entitled receive, but wasn't entitled to disclose, when he engaged in that illegal activity of disclosing it. He did disclose one program that had a real impact of Americans' privacy and civil liberties. It was a program that involved the collection of phone records, right?

Washington: Metadata.

Jaffer: The numbers that you and I dialed, metadata, right? Dialed phone numbers, date time and duration of a call, no content, just the fact of the call. And yes, those were collected across the United States, my phone calls, your phone calls, through a set of American carriers, and all that data was collected.

And what you could do is once that data was in a database, you could dip in and look for a terrorist phone number and pull out one, two, three, three hops. That was a lot of data, for sure. And that did, admittedly, have a very, a real impact on Americans' privacy and civil liberties to the extent that you believe metadata, right, the numbers you dial have a relevance.

And they do, because you might be calling your, you might be calling, you know, somebody you don’t want people to know you're calling, I'm calling your lawyer, you might be calling your...

Washington: But wait a minute. But let's pull that thread, because that to me, this is the whole point. This is the same point that I’m making. Let's suppose for a minute, and actually we're not supposing. We know that this happened, and this is how some of that data was used. You got terrorist X, right, who is actually working with operatives who are in the U.S. who are U.S. citizens.

Jaffer: Right.

Washington: And that person is making calls, passing out information, and the way they discovered the U.S. operatives who were assisting terrorist X was by the utilization of that program.

Jaffer: Right. And then if you want to collect on that American or anybody in the United States-

Washington: You need a warrant.

Jaffer: You've got to get a FISA quarter order or warrant. Exactly. So there's no way you can even get that content unless you have a real court order. And so this whole sort of myth that developed around Snowden, that it was more than the metadata, there was something else going on here. None of that was true.

And in fact, then you look at the other 99% of whatever it's Snowden revealed: highly sensitive information about very capable terrorism programs and surveillance programs against foreign actors overseas. The bulk of what he distributed, that were leaked out to all these newspapers and given to the Russians almost wholesale had nothing to do with America.

It was one program. And yes, that program generated a good debate, right? The law was modified.

By the way, it's worth noting that program was never stopped under the Obama administration. It was never discontinued. It kept going. Congress even modified and even authorized that program with more limited boundaries around it and ultimately decided not to continue that program, but that program was tremendously valuable, and the reality of the situation is that yes, there was one disclosure. The bulk of it is not Edward Snowden, the hero. The bulk of it is Edward Snowden, the traitor. And let's be real clear about that.

Washington: Well, look, you won't get any pushback from me on this one.

Jaffer: And by the way, that man lives in Moscow today, and he has Russian citizenship. Let's not get it twisted about who that man really is. That man is not a hero.

Washington: It's a very, very interesting. I did watch a docudrama on his life. I found it would be pretty intriguing.

So for a while, your institute was focused on China. I want to spend a little bit of time here just because of TikTok and some of the other things. I really want to get your feeling.

And so you were focused there. You did a lot of work there. But then it looks like it kind of tailed off somewhat. And I can see why with the Russia Ukraine piece, with the Israeli Gaza piece as well. But is China still at the top of your list in terms of a focus? And can you talk about its influence and why we should be concerned?

Jaffer: Yeah. You know, they are at the top of the list. And what we're seeing increasingly is the collaboration of these various bad actors, right? The Russians, the Chinas, the Iranians and North Koreans.

We just saw President Xi and President Putin meet in Beijing. It's their 40th-plus meeting in just the last few years. They met about a year or two ago previously, and if you remember at the end of that visit, there was a very telling moment where they both knew the cameras were on. And President Xi and what looked like a pull aside, but he knew the camera was running. He says to President Putin, he says, you know, the world is seeing, the biggest changes is seen in three decades. And we, you and I, the Russians and Chinese, were architecting that change.

He wanted the world to hear that, that we are working together and we're moving the world. It's not America. It's not Europe. It's us.

And that's a really telling moment. Right before Russia invaded Ukraine, China and Russia inked a no-limits partnership. No limits. They put the name on it, and they doubled down on it just this past week in Beijing. And so, you know, these actors, so when you see us talk about Russia, Ukraine, that is not different than China, Taiwan. That is not different than Israel, Hamas, and Iran's role in that, and Iran's role in Hezbollah, right?

These are all interrelated, interconnected, and they're all working together, right? There's a reason why the North Korea nuclear program looks a lot like the Pakistan nuclear program, which looks a lot like the Iranian nuclear program. It's because the AQ Khan Network from Pakistan sold that information about how to make those centrifuges.

So there are very direct connections between these actors in the world. Y’know, you think about it. China's interning a million Muslim Uyghurs in termicamps, in gulags, in the Xinjiang province, right? You know who says nothing about it? Nobody in the Middle East. Pakistan, Imran Khan, the famous cricketeer that all the Pakistanis love, right? Gives China a pass on interning a million Muslims. It's crazy, right?

Why is the U.S. have to call out under both the Biden and the Trump administration that a genocide is happening in China to a million Muslim immigrants? Why isn't Saudi Arabia and Egypt and Jordan and all these people who are protesting about Palestinians and what's happening with Hamas and Gaza? Why don't we talk about the million Muslims in prison camps in China?

Well, it's hard to talk about that because, you know, we get a lot of really cheap cars, a lot of really cheap shirts, a lot of really good semiconductors from there. It's hard to make trouble there. The NBA, the NBA, an American Basketball League, told its own owners and operators, don't talk bad about China because we make too much money there. They pushed Enos Cantor out of the league because he talked too much about the Uyghurs. Crazy.

Washington: So the actual security concerns with regard to Chinese influence on American politics in mining user data, for example, has led to legislation calling for Chinese divestment of the app TikTok on national security concerns.

Jaffer: Yeah.

Washington: Why is it important that the U.S. government take these steps to potentially ban TikTok, in your opinion?

Jaffer: Look, you know, people say I don't understand why people care about TikTok. It's just kids having dance videos. You know, what's the big deal, right?

But the reality is it's not just these videos. It's who you share them with. It's who your social network is. It's who you're communicating with. It's where you are and where your phone, where your devices at all times. It's connecting all of that data.

Washington: Metadata.

Jaffer: All that metadata with the data the Chinese has stolen from our credit bureaus, from the security clearance databases. Everyone with security clearance had their information stolen from OPM. All of our Marriott Hotel records, right? All these health records from major insurers.

Washington: Wait a minute. They got our Marriott Hotel records?

Jaffer: They got your My Bonvoy account, all gone. But think about what that means. Think about your credit records, your hotel records, your travel, your security clearance, you combine all that. Then you add in your social networks on TikTok, who your kids are communicating with, how they operate, how they play video games. Combine all that and then apply AI over that.

And what you now have is an amazing, very detailed insight into the live of average Americans, including the people that hold the highest level security clearances and who their kids are friends with and how you can approach them for a target and take advantage of them.

That is what TikTok is about. It's not about dance videos.

And by the way, this whole claim that, oh, Americans' free speech rights are being trampled and being trampled upon.

I mean, last time I checked, you got Twitter, you got Instagram, you got reels, you got so many places that put your voice out there. YouTube. You need TikTok? That's the only way is a Chinese government-controlled app that you can get your voice out there?

If that's suppressing free speech, then we got real problems. So do you have any predictions on whether or not ByteDance will comply and identify?

Jaffer: They will not.

Washington: Of course not.

Jaffer: Of course not.

Washington: And so, you know, my next question, right? What happens next?

Jaffer: I mean, look, we put our foot down, right? I mean, it was, for a long time, it was very controversial, and ultimately, Congress has figured it out. You know, look, the truth is President Washington, the American people were waking up to the threat that is China, right?

They realized it really during the pandemic, when we realized, wow, all of our PPE, our personal protective equipment, all of our pharmaceutical precursors are made in China.

And so we started to realize that. We've now started to forget that a little bit because, you know, Americans were so innovative, we've moved so fast, we forget things happened recently. But I think that America is finally waking up to the reality of what China is and what they're doing in their long-term game here.

Washington: So this is interesting. I was at a very, very high-level meeting here. We had some former high-ranking members of our government, also foreign European governments, a number of leaders from industry, from some tech companies from a very prominent chip manufacturer, who I will not mention. And we were having the similar discussion.

And I asked the question, is Taiwan a Chinese entity? Because I know what the law says on this, and I know what the- you know...

And I was surprised how the debate manifested, because many of the people there, basically tried to paint the picture highlighting that it wasn't, that it's not a Chinese entity. It was very clear to me that it's a Chinese entity.

Then, you know, later on, as I began to pontificate and think as to why they had such an issue, it became very clear to me, well, if Taiwan is a Chinese-owned entity, then the main driver of wealth in this country, the semiconductor, is basically, at least in some sense, owned by the Chinese.

Jaffer: Yeah.

Washington: Because TSMC, which in my opinion is the most of, well, it's not in my opinion. It is clear they produce the highest quality chips. They produce the most complex chips. All of our major chip development companies use TSMC to manufacture their chips, and TSMC is easily five years or so ahead of the next closest rival.

It's the one area. It's the one thing that, you know, when you look at the U.S. and we make design the chips here, right? You know, our great companies design those chips, but the bulk of them are actually manufactured by TSMC. And they don't even have a close rival. There's nobody anywhere near them.

Jaffer: Not even close. And we've spent billions of dollars in the Inflation Reduction Act, the bipartisan infrastructure law, to try and rebuild some capacity. It is a drop, is a tiny drop in the bucket compared to what TSM has got in the capabilities. There is no company in the world that can do a three to four nanometer process.

Washington: That's exactly right.

Jaffer: Other than TSMC. There's no company that builds the that builds the equipment to do that three to four nanometer process with EUV technology other than ASML, a Dutch company. None of these companies are American. And that is terrifying because we're creating those three to four nanometer processes, the ideas and design. But we can't execute it.

Washington: We can't make the chips. And so this brings to the point. And to me, this is the number one security issue that we have.

Jaffer: It's the harder.

Washington: That's right. If China goes into- And I think this is driving all of this. It's like a chess game. They're trying to get your king. That's the king. The king is whoever controls TSMC has a very, very firm hold. All of this stuff we're talking about with Jensen Wong and NVIDIA and NVIDIA chips. Where are the chips being produced, right? Where's that? It's coming from TSMC.

And if China goes in and takes Taiwan, TSMC is the primary reason for them doing it. I don't think they would care about Taiwan to the degree they do now if TSMC were not there. And I don't think we would care either, right? And so can you talk a little bit about this?

Jaffer: I mean, imagine if your king on the chessboard had no pawns around it.

Washington: Right.

Jaffer: Because that's the situation with Taiwan right now. If the Chinese decided to invade tomorrow, and they're not going to invade tomorrow, because they don't think they're ready, right? They're not going to invade tomorrow. Maybe in a couple of years, but not tomorrow.

If they were going to invade tomorrow, we couldn't get there in time to really put up a real fight. It would take us months to flow the forces to the region that we need. And we have already a carrier battle group in the region. We have a Marine Expeditionary Task Force out there nearby. We couldn't get there with enough forces in time to really have a force-on-force fight with the Chinese over Taiwan. By the time they went and took it, the game would be up, we wouldn't even get in the fight.

The only way we could really fight that fight is if we put forces forward and no president, not Trump, not Biden, not Obama before him, not Bush before him, was willing to put the forces forward to do that. And until the American president is ready to do that, the Chinese will read that for what it is, which is America is not ready to defend Taiwan and won't do it.

And so the only question: they're not waiting for us; they're waiting for themselves to be ready. The lesson they're taking from Russia, Ukraine is: don't go in and be not ready. Don't go without a military you can trust. Know that you're ready to be able to take it. Make it a fait accompli within the first month.

Yes, you may have to fight a long-term insurgency. Don't even let the U.S. get in the fight, and they don't want to be in the fight. They read what we see as a successful Ukraine policy: We've supported the Ukrainians. They've kept the fight going. They see it as American weakness. We're not willing to put boots on the ground. Every little bit we're eking in a little bit more every so often. We're not going to put M1A1 because you might use nuclear weapons. We won't put them in. And then eventually we put them in, oh, surprise, surprise. He doesn't use nuclear weapons.

Chinese know that too. That's why they're tripling their nuclear force. They know that we're afraid of that, and we won't go up to the line. And so they view it as it's a question of not if but when. And that's the real scary thing.

And the problem is the president's trying out there. He goes on TV all the time and says, we will defend Taiwan with American troops if we need to. He's done it four times in the last two years. But every time he does it, my friend Jake Sullivan comes to the White House podium and says, what the president really meant was we'll send weapons of Taiwan. He didn't mean troops.

Now, the administration says, well, that's strategic ambiguity, right? We're keeping it unclear. But that kind of strategic ambiguity, it doesn't help. It creates risk. It tempts them to test our boundaries. You don't want to test our boundaries. They should have a clear understanding. You go to Taiwan. We will fight you toe to toe, and we're going to put the force forward to make that true.

And the reason we won't do it today, and Trump wouldn't do it and Biden won't do it, they're afraid if we do that, that we'll be the ones who trip over the wire and start the thing. It's just like Russia, Ukraine: We put too many weapons in; we'll tip it over.

That's the opposite. Our adversaries understand and respect power. We don't use it. We don't show it.

Washington: But they know it's there.

Jaffer: If we're ready to fight. They see us as unready to fight. They see the American people not ready, and they don't see the kind of leader who will step forward and bring the American people to- American people will fight a just war if they need to. But they have to be told by an American leader why it matters.

Washington: So let's follow that thread just a little bit. What happens if they do take Taiwan.

Jaffer: Oh, it's bad.

Washington: Now, you say, okay, well, we can't stop them. And I tend to agree with you. We can't.

Jaffer: In the immediate aftermath-

Washington: But we would see them coming, right? They would need to amass troops. We would know that it is getting ready to happen before it's happened.

Jaffer: Kind of like Russia Ukraine.

Washington: Right. Yeah, we saw, we saw them coming. And what I hear you saying is that they want to be ready. Do you think they want to be ready for a fight in Taiwan, or do they want to be ready for what they're going to have to deal with relative to us? I think it's the latter. I don't think that they're worried about the Taiwanese forces that much.

Jaffer: They want to telegraph to us that they're going to take that island so fast and so directly that by the time we get there, we'd have to fight a rear insurgency for many, many years, and we lose a lot of lives to retake the island. They want to make it more costly for us than it was for them to go in, and they assess, I think... And now, I will admit that I may be applying an American mentality.

Washington: Yeah, I think you are.

Jaffer: I may be mirror imaging, right? And so I may be wrong. But my worry is they see us as unwilling to fight fights. Post-Iraq, post-Afghanistan, the terrible departure from Afghanistan, the way we've left Iraq, the way we abandoned our Kurdish allies in the Trump administration... They see America is on the retreat, unwilling to defend its allies, unwilling to put its forces forward. They think we're weak and they think they can play their card. So they want to show strength and say, we got a strong hand. Don't even try coming here. We will make it very painful for you, and you don't want to bear that cost.

Washington: Okay. So I hear what you're saying. Let me tell you why I disagree.

Jaffer: All right. I like this. All right.

Washington: When it truly matters, we figure out a way to get it done. Right? When Saddam Hussein invaded Kuwait, right, we saw his troops massing at the border. We knew what was going to happen. We used the rhetoric and all of that to get our folk ready. You know what I'm saying?

Jaffer: You're right.

Washington: And then we went in and took care of Saddam Hussein. And that was to protect the free flow of oil, right? Because every major recession in our country, including the Great Recession, there was an oil shock. Not everyone, but most of them. There was an oil shock, a significant increase in the price of oil that preceded it, right? And so they knew that the connection, our economy's connection to oil is significant.

Well, our economy's connection to chips is as significant, and I would contend to you, it might actually even be more significant now because of these other kinds of electric vehicles. There are other modes where we can make do without as much oil, right?

Jaffer: You're right.

Washington: There is no substitute globally right now for TSMC.

Jaffer: Yeah.

Washington: There's none. It goes away. It loses ability to do what it does. We can be a third rate power from a technology perspective.

Washington: No, you're right. We would care a lot less about the Middle East if there weren't fossil fuels under that land.

Jaffer: Of course. We care a lot less about Taiwan if TSMC weren't there. You're 100% correct.

Washington: So we will figure out a way to do what we could to support and defend Taiwan. And I would be, we would be unwise if there aren't scenarios, if they're not people, hundreds of them right now, drawing up the battle plans and drawing up. up the scenario analysis relative to this very issue. I would be surprised if that were not happening to this day.

You know, you and I are pretty smart people. There are smarter folk looking at this. I can I can tell you without a shadow of doubt.

Jaffer: They're doing it. And the problem is that if we don't fight on day one for Taiwan and day two and day three, but we will wait till day 100 or day 150, it is a lot more costly a fight.

And yes, you're right. We may very well take that fight on. But if you're right, and it's so critical, which I agree with you, by the way, 100%, you're absolutely correct. Then it would be insane for us not to be prepared to fight that fight on day one and win that fight on day one. And as a result, make it clear to the Chinese that that is our intent, it is our policy, and to put the forces in place to be ready to have that fight.

Every day we don't do that, we tempt them to take action and we wait longer-

Washington: I hear you.

Jaffer: And it's more costly.

Washington: And this is, like I said, we're going to have a little bit of debate on this one. I actually think, while I can't give you a definitive answer on what strategy is, I don't know. I would be totally surprised if there were not a strategy. It's just too obvious that the Chinese are going to take it for the U.S. not to have a strategy here, right? Too many smart people with their time and resources on their hands, they're looking at this. They've got to be, right?

So, you know, I'm prior military. I spent time in the military. And then I spent a significant amount of time on what's called a scientific advisory board for the Air Force. And when you're on those scientific advisory boards as a researcher, they use researchers in the country to help them deal with very difficult problems and challenges to deal with the government. You are routinely engaging members of the Pentagon, very high-ranking senior military officials and the like. Let me make no doubt about it. Some of the smartest people I've ever met.

Jaffer: 100%.

Washington: Brilliant. So there's not a competency issue there. Now, politics.

Jaffer: That's what I'm talking about.

Washington: Murkies the water a little bit.

Jaffer: I’m talking about the competence of politicians, the policymakers.

Washington: But the politicians aren't going to prosecute that battle.

Jaffer: They got to decide.

Washington: They do.

Jaffer: They're not ready. They don’t have the guts.

Washington: They do, but the people that I engaged have already taken into account the fact that they may be slow to act or may not act at all. And they have scenario planning in place for those type of occurrences as well because they're too smart not to. And I know it's kind of a blind faith, but I believe it because I've spent time with these folk. I mean, real time.

Jaffer: No, you're right.

Washington: Right. And so it will be an issue. I just don't know that I would be very, very surprised if we didn't have a plan in place for how to deal with it. And I think that not only do we have plans in place, I think the Chinese know that we have plans in place and that's why they haven't taken it. Do you see what I'm saying?

Jaffer: I do. By the way, I don't think you're out of that far apart. I think we actually agree in large part on this, which is to say there are absolutely scenario plans. There are absolutely plans that would allow us to rapidly accelerate, build the defense force, the union, get them there fast, and fight that war, right?

Washington: Or plans to totally isolate in wall-off significant portions of Chinese economy that causes them to have real, real challenges there as well, because them taking Taiwan won't just affect the Americans. It's actually also going to affect the Europeans. It's also going to affect other countries in Southeast Asia that are developing. It's going to affect Vietnam. It's going to affect the Japanese. It's going to affect the Indians. Everybody will be affected by this because TSMC is that dominant.

Jaffer: And, by the way, let's not, and people don't want to talk about this, but let's not take it off the table that there are probably contingency plans to, if, in fact, the Chinese take TSMC off the map.

Washington: Yeah.

Jaffer: I’m not saying that's the plan. I'm just saying, like, let's not kid ourselves that that's got to be in the cards as well.

Washington: Well, they're building a facility here in the U.S.

Jaffer: Right. But here's what I worry about, right? I worry that we have a political system today and political leaders today who are increasingly responsive too much to what they perceive as the views of the American people rather than leading. We are not- We are a representative democracy. We are not a pure democracy. And the more we take this populist turn, whether you're a liberal or a conservative, doesn't matter.

Washington: Oh, without question.

Jaffer: When you don't have leadership amongst policymakers, they're trying to take the pulse to the American people and do what the American people want every single day, that's when you make these failures. That's when you don't act when you need to act. And that's when you put our military and the men and women who put their lives on the line every day as you did for our country. That's when you put them at risk and greater risk every day. And we make it more dangerous and more costly for American treasure and American lives. And that, to me, is cavalier and inappropriate. We need real leaders in government. And you know how we get real leaders in government? We got to do our job. We got to hold our leaders accountable.

Washington: Actually, you've given me an idea. I'm going to get you and a couple of other folk together, and we're going to have a roundtable to discuss this very, very issue, the issue of leadership in this country. I think it's something that we should definitely talk about. And I think we actually have the right horses here at ��ӽ紫ý in order to do it.

Jaffer: We do.

Washington: I’m going to end on this question. As I understand it, your National Security Institute is a bipartisan entity. That being said, we have significant levels of partisanship in our government, and quite frankly, as we've been discussing in the public sphere. What can NSA do to break through that clutter?

Jaffer: I think the key is to talk to the American people about what makes this country great. And to recognize that, as you said earlier, all those elements of greatness are still here. We are still the most innovative country in the world. We are still the strongest economy in the world. We are still the strongest people. We have the best laws. They may not be perfect. Our political system may not be perfect. Our political leaders may not be perfect. But we have a duty to talk about who we are, to be proud of who we are, and to be a strong country.

It is what we were built on, is what we were built to do. And every day that the American people spend time at each other's throats and allow our leaders to put ourselves at each other's throats is a day we are losing the battle to the people that want us to lose: to China, Russia, Iran, North Korea.

So if we want to think about how to fix our problems in the world, it begins here at home. It begins with voting. Voting every day. It is a crime that half the American people that could vote don't register. It is a crime that half those that are registered don't vote. Take responsibility.

All our young people that are listening to this here at ��ӽ紫ý, every single one you must register to vote. You want to go protest, go protest, but vote. And vote for adults. Vote for people who have real serious thoughts. And at the end of day, for me, that's about national security. That is about bipartisanship.

Because at the end of the day, this isn't about Republican/Democrat. This is about America. This is about a vision. This is about a dream. This is about the ideals that we have in this country. And they are the right ones. And we are called to this mission. We have been since our founding, and we still are today, no matter how hard it is.

And that's what NSI is out there talk about and fighting about every day.

Washington: Oh, man, I love it. I love it. Well, we're going to have to leave it there. Jamil Jaffer, thank you for connecting some dots for us in an extraordinarily complex puzzle. I am ��ӽ紫ý President Gregory Washington. Thanks for listening and tune in next time for more conversations that show why we are all together different.

Narrator: If you like what you heard on this podcast, go to podcast.gmu.edu for more of Gregory Washington's conversations with the thought leaders, experts, and educators who take on the grand challenges facing our students, graduates, and higher education. That's podcast.gmu.edu.

In This Story

Jamil N. Jaffer

Listen to more Episodes

Podcast Ep 60 - Marking a decade of success at Mason Korea
August 6, 2024
Podcast Ep 59 - Cybersecurity and the global threats of tomorrow
July 5, 2024
Podcast - Ep 58: What will become of the Amazon?
April 22, 2024
Podcast - Ep 57: Catherine Read, mayor of Fairfax City, Va., is outspoken, unfiltered
March 25, 2024
Podcast - Ep 56: A view from the pulpit
February 16, 2024

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Podcast - Ep 58: What will become of the Amazon?

Damian Cristodero — Mon, 22 Apr 2024 14:19:56 +0000

Podcast - Ep 58: What will become of the Amazon? Damian Cristodero Mon, 04/22/2024 - 10:19

What will become of the Amazon?

Jeremy Campbell, associate director for strategic engagement in ��ӽ紫ý’s Institute for a Sustainable Earth, says that at its current pace the vast Amazon rainforest, in five to 10 years, could pass a tipping point in which it could transform into grasslands. That process, fueled by deforestation and climate change, is a threat to the biodiversity and socio-cultural aspects that define the region, and has global implications as well. In this fascinating conversation in recognition of Earth Month, Campbell explains to Mason President Gregory Washington the magnitude of what the loss of the Amazon rainforest would really mean, and how the Institute for a Sustainable Earth in on the front lines in the region.

Where there used to be forest, you’re not going to get any more of that transpiration cycle, and so the drying isn’t limited to the places where deforestation happens. Where things are dry, things get hotter. And then when you add like we had last year with the horrible situation throughout the Amazon of an El Nino-induced heat spike and drought, then you have villages that rely on fish, rely on the rivers to get around because the rivers are the highways of the Amazon, who are literally stranded. So the drying out of the Amazon is a tremendous biodiversity challenge, it’s also a tremendous economic challenge. But it’s also a human tragedy that is taking tremendous costs on the people of the Amazon as well."

Read the Transcript

Narrator (00:04):

Trailblazers in research, innovators in technology, and those who simply have a good story. All make up the fabric that is ��ӽ紫ý, where taking on the grand challenges that face our students, graduates, and higher education is our mission and our passion. Hosted by Mason President Gregory Washington, this is the Access to Excellence podcast.

Gregory Washington (00:26):

The Amazon Basin, which holds the world's biggest river rainforest and a fifth of its fresh water is running dry. That was the news in the Washington Post recently. The New York Times went even further citing a study that says the Amazon rainforest could transform into grasslands in the coming decades because of climate change, deforestation, and severe drought, such as the one the region just experienced. Jeremy Campbell is a cultural anthropologist who studies land conflicts and environmental change in the Brazilian Amazon. He is also the associate director for strategic engagement at Mason's Institute for Sustainable Earth. Since 2020, Dr. Campbell has served as the president of the Society of Anthropology of Lowland South America. That's an international scholarly organization that advocates on behalf of peoples and environments in Amazonia and beyond. In this Earth Month, I am thrilled that Dr. Campbell has given us an opportunity to engage. Welcome Dr. Campbell.

Jeremy Campbell (01:44):

Thank you so much Dr. Washington. It's a pleasure to be here.

Gregory Washington (01:47):

Well, it's great to have you. So let's get right to the bad news.

Jeremy Campbell (01:51):

Yeah, let's do it.

Gregory Washington (01:53):

According to the Times and the study that was produced by an international team of scientists and published in the Journal Nature, the collapse of all or part of the Amazon rainforest would release the equivalent of several years of global emissions, possibly 20 years’ worth, into the atmosphere. Give us a template or an understanding for how that actually happens.

Jeremy Campbell (02:19):

Sure. It's complex inherently because the Amazon is, is a very complex region. But to understand what's really going on, you have to really appreciate the size and the immensity and the complexity of the Amazon, which I think for most North Americans, certainly me growing up, I didn't really have much of an understanding other than maybe the, uh, back of the cereal box image of the canopy rainforest with monkeys and toucans and things like this. But you know, the Amazon is vast. It's the size of the lower 48 United States. Yeah, the Amazon Basin is that big.

Gregory Washington (02:51):

The Amazon Basin is the size of essentially the US minus Alaska and Hawaii.

Jeremy Campbell (02:58):

You got it. That's it. It's amazing. Yeah. Not only that, there are nine different nation states that share a portion of that basin going around from Bolivia in the southwest up to Peru, Ecuador, Columbia, Venezuela, Guiana, Surinam, French Guiana, which is an overseas part of the French Republic, so it's part of Europe, it's part of the EU. And then of course Brazil is the lion's share about 70% of the basin. You mentioned Dr. Washington, your stats are good. Your research is good that the Amazon is the world's biggest river by water discharge. Yes. But if you look at the top 20 hydrological discharges rivers in the world, six of them are tributaries of the Amazon. So you've got seven of the top 20 rivers in the world. Right. In that region. Okay. So it is a region that is so immense and so complex to say nothing of the diversity of different river types.

Jeremy Campbell (03:49):

You have black river systems, you have clear water systems, you have white water systems. The subbasins are very complex. What that all adds up to is with this immense area, with immense amounts of water, it is big enough to generate its own weather. And so when we talk about the tipping point, the looming tipping point that actually our departed colleague Tom Lovejoy coined that phrase back in 2018. It's the idea that the neotropics, the subtropical system that is the Amazon is in danger of phase shifting from a robust complex rainforest to something like a Savannah, a grassland, or even in some cases something more like the Sahel region of Northern Africa

Gregory Washington (04:35):

That's near desert.

Jeremy Campbell (04:35):

That's near desert. Exactly. And so how can that happen?

Gregory Washington (04:38):

Now, now let's, let's put it in perspective. You're talking five years, we're talking five decades, or we're talking 500 years? What are we talking about?

Jeremy Campbell (04:49):

Great question. So back in 2018, when Dr. Lovejoy and his colleague Dr. Carlos Nobre from the University of Sao Paulo, published in Nature, the first warning about the tipping point, they estimated what it would take to get to the tipping point is a gross deforestation of approximately 20 to 25% of the land in the entire basin. That was in 2018. At that time, about 18% of the basin had been deforested. Flash ahead six years we're at about 20% of the basin has been deforested. So depending on the projections, and depending on what we might be able to do to put the brakes on deforestation, we might be looking at a tipping point in the next five to 10 years. And again, to put that in perspective, you have the wettest place on earth, some parts of that place becoming a savanna due to deforestation,

Jeremy Campbell (05:40):

but the other crucial part, we can handle deforestation. It's difficult, but we can handle it. The other contributing factor to the tipping point is climate change. And that we're locked into in terms of warming that's affecting the Amazon. The Amazon is warming faster than other regions. It's already warmed 1.3 degrees Celsius since 1980. And it's on an upward trend. That means that some parts of the Amazon are getting wetter, especially the northern parts of the Amazon. But other parts of the Amazon within the global climate system are getting far, far drier. And that's irrespective of seasonal anomalies like an El Nino or a La Nina, which intensify things even further as we know. So you have deforestation cutting down trees that make their own weather through transpiration and evaporation. The Amazon is big enough to, through the transpiration process, there's literally rivers flying above your head.

Gregory Washington (06:39):

That much water.

Jeremy Campbell (06:39):

That much water. Exactly. And those rivers basically follow the trade winds that come from Senegal, from Cape Verde in Africa, and those winds pick up moisture over the South Atlantic. They pick up all the moisture at the Falls of the Amazon near the city of Belem. And then all of that goes kind of in a southwesterly direction towards the Andes. And the Andes is 20,000 feet high. So what happens when air hits that barrier?

Gregory Washington (07:04):

It turns into ice and snow.

Jeremy Campbell (07:05):

It turns to ice and snow. Some of it turns left, which is to say south and southeast and irrigates, South America's bread basket where most of South America's wheat in Argentina, soy in Paraguay and Bolivia and Brazil is grown. And then of course, cattle and pig operations. South America's economy over the past 20 years has been based on the export of commodities in the agricultural sector to East Asia. You turn off the spigot, which is the Amazon hydrogeological cycle, and you're going to see some drying out of that bread basket as well. And so the Amazon plays a crucial role in the global climate system sequestering carbon, we can get into some of the numbers for that if you like. But it also plays a key role in the hydrological and geochemical cycling beyond its borders in South America, which then has implications for global trade and for wellbeing of people who, you know, we've got 8 billion of us on this planet.

Gregory Washington (08:04):

That’s exactly right

Speaker 3 (08:04):

Hungry souls, right?

Gregory Washington (08:05):

You got more than 8 billion. So climate change is affecting that way. I was also reading in the same Nature article where they were talking about the drought significantly reducing the depth in a number of the rivers and slso causing tremendous warming of the waters in some of the lakes. I think they talk about one of the lakes, I think it's pronounced Tefe

Jeremy Campbell (08:30):

Tefe. Yah, that's in Brazil.

Speaker 2 (08:31):

Yeah, where the temperature had reached 40 degrees Centigrade. For those of us who are challenged on that system, it's 104 degrees Fahrenheit and you had large pods of dolphins over 150 of 'em, these freshwater dolphins that perished. 'cause the water got so warm. So that meant other water life didn't live either. If you major and if you major living, eating and living off and using the sea life that's right in that water for commerce, you probably saw some changes there as well.

Jeremy Campbell (09:09):

Sure. And for subsistence living, I've done a quite a bit of work over the past 20 years with indigenous and other traditional peoples in the Amazon. And you're absolutely right. The stresses caused by climate change and by deforestation, which really do interact with one another dynamically to push us ever closer to that system change, that phase change from a stable system where water gets recycled to one where, you know, when you cut down a tree and around 20% of the forest is gone now, you are drying out that soil. You are drying out that part of that region. And basically the southern strip of the Amazon has been converted to pasture and cities in the past 40, 50 years. Where there used to be forests, you're not gonna get any more of that transpiration cycle. And so the drying isn't limited to the places where deforestation happens, where things are dry, things get hotter.

Jeremy Campbell (10:01):

And then when you add, like we had last year with the horrible situation in Lago Tefe, but all throughout the Amazon of an El Nino induced heat spike and drought, then you have villages that rely on fish, rely on the rivers to get around because the rivers are the highways in the Amazon who are literally stranded without the ability to get to major cities, the without the ability to get healthcare. So the drying out of the Amazon is a tremendous biodiversity challenge. It's also a tremendous economic challenge in the ways we just talked about, but it's also a human tragedy, and it's taking tremendous costs on the people of the Amazon as well.

Gregory Washington (10:41):

Wow. This is a pretty significant outcome. I've always wanted to get a better understanding of the impact that the Amazon can have on the planet in terms of a losing of substantial portion of it. What do you think that will do to the rest of us? So let's say if we lost, let's make it a big number, 50%. What are we talking about relative to what the rest of the globe will feel?

Jeremy Campbell (11:10):

Well, the catastrophic loss of biodiversity, let's take that first, because the Amazon is estimated these are our best guesses.

Gregory Washington (11:18):

I know. I look, I understand.

Jeremy Campbell (11:19):

I mean, it's …

Gregory Washington (11:20):

But your guess is a scientific guess.

Jeremy Campbell (11:24):

Well, that's right. That's right.

Gregory Washington (11:25):

And that's better than me putting my index finger in the air and saying, you know, about, okay, so.

Jeremy Campbell (11:31):

Right, right, right. And so, yeah, for the sake of argument, if we lose half of the rainforest, then I think we're definitely, even though there was some quibbling when Dr. Lovejoy and Dr. Nobre said tipping point will be reached at 25% deforestation. There was some pushback against that. But if we get to 50%, we're definitely seeing a phase change. We're gonna be seeing savannization, we're gonna be seeing the loss of endemic species diversity in the affected valleys. Again, the Amazon is the name we give to the river that goes west to east. But there are huge river systems that go north south and south north that feed that Amazon. And each one has its distinct biodiversity profile and has also distinct sociocultural properties, different social groups who speak different languages. And so, depending on what happens valley by valley, region by region, we could be experiencing a catastrophic loss of biodiversity.

Jeremy Campbell (12:22):

What goes along with that, of course, is part of the mystery of life. Part of what makes us human is that we share this planet with other creatures. And so even before we're able to describe them scientifically, you would see thousands, if not millions of species being pushed to the brink of extinction. Of course, many minds would go towards the opportunity value or the, or the opportunity lost to develop medicines or to develop new technologies based upon things that we don't know, that we don't know in the Amazon, because it is such a biodiversity library. Library is also a good metaphor. Uh, and it's actually a metaphor that's used by my indigenous colleagues when deforestation or drought spikes and begins to challenge and affect indigenous lands. My indigenous colleagues describe that as the libraries of their people burning. Because the trees and the animals and the plant life are part of the traditional knowledge system. Part of how you make your way in the universe, know your place in the universe, find medicine, find food, find stories to pass down to the next generation. And so deforestation plays a sociocultural role in terms of challenging culture's ability to reproduce itself, right? And for people to continue to hold onto their languages and their traditional knowledges and medicines. Also, it's worth saying, because we're talking about climate change, that the system, the broader Amazonian system, sequesters roughly 200 billion tons of carbon dioxide, 200 billion tons. If we lost half of that, let's just go,

Gregory Washington (14:03):

Just cut it in half.

Jeremy Campbell (14:04):

Really gross numbers here, exactly. A hundred billion tons goes into the atmosphere, poof, just like that. We, as the United States of America, the world's second largest emitter emitted 4 billion tons of carbon last year. So that's 25 years’ worth of our emissions.

Gregory Washington (14:21):

Okay, so now we start to get an understanding of the magnitude exactly. Of what this loss can actually mean for us. And that's kind of what I wanted people to kind of grasp. Wow. It's a big number.

Jeremy Campbell (14:36):

It’s a big number. And again, the loss of biodiversity. I mean, here in the United States, we're comfortable. We plug into our cell phones, we plug into cable news, whatever it is, it can feel like the Amazon's far away. But some major drugs have been developed based on traditional ecological knowledge and biodiversity. In the Amazon, for example, the very first drug that treated malaria quinine or quinine, right? Quinine is based on, uh, derived from the bark of a tree in the Amazon. And so that's kind of a big deal, right? There are others. There are,

Gregory Washington (15:09):

And there probably, you know, as we start to, uh, for lack of a better way of putting this, use AI and other tools to look at the pharmaceutical benefits of natural extracts from plants and from plant life and all throughout the planet, but particularly that in the Amazon, we're gonna discover many more.

Jeremy Campbell (15:31):

That’s right, that’s right. So we're putting at peril future discoveries, we're putting at peril a big chunk of the mosaic of life and the big chunk of sociocultural diversity. Part of the bad news in the Amazon is in part the attitude that outsiders have taken and continue to take that understanding the region as a place where you can get rich quick, right? So I, I hear you, and it would be great if we could develop something that would be that elixir, but what the trick would be to develop that drug or develop that therapy and make sure the proceeds stay with the people of the Amazon. Because unfortunately, the more that we study the Amazon, and I've been working there for 25 years, there is chapter after chapter of economic boom that is all about getting a particular commodity out. First it was rubber.

Jeremy Campbell (16:21):

The world's rubber supply was limited to the Amazon basin because it's native to the Amazon basin. So during the industrial revolution of the late 1800s, all the world's rubber came from the Amazon. So that resulted in actually a really bad impact on the Amazon, because rubber is hard to extract. You have to physically cut the trees and collect the sap. So basically slave labor, uh, indigenous peoples were enslaved other peoples from throughout the Americas were taken in and dropped into the Amazon by their bosses and forced to work in really terrible kinds of conditions. And that all basically flamed out when the British, during the British Empire, Grand Britannia, stole some rubber trees and began a rubber plantation in Malaysia, which allowed for other markets and other sources to open up for rubber. Then you get a gold boom, similar kind of extraction, where profits are extracted, leaving behind very little in the region itself. I would argue that the cattle and soy boom that's happening right now is similar. We have 50 million people living in the Amazon, 50 million individuals, 40 million of them live in cities. A lot of people don't understand that either, right? The Amazon is a highly urbanized place.

Gregory Washington (17:34):

Interesting.

Jeremy Campbell (17:34):

There are cities of 4 and 5 million people, but they are very low on the human development index because they are the sites of factories or farms or these sorts of things where labor and environmental protections are looked askant at or really not enforced. And people are getting by as best they can. And the investment that goes to the area, because it is an incredibly rich area, tends not to stay in the area. That's a key piece of this too. The environmental and social sustainability of the area depends on economic sustainability as well. I believe that crucially, you gotta have all three pillars, uh, all three legs of that stool. And that's a key piece that we really do need to be figuring out.

Gregory Washington (18:17):

Well, that brings me to my next question, because recently it was announced that the governments of Brazil and France announced a plan to invest 1.1 billion in the Amazon over the next four years to protect the rainforest, right? Now on first blush, anytime you hear the word billion, you think, wow, it's a lot. But there was a part of me that says, given what you just told me now, it didn't seem like that much money for a region that vast. Now it's also been reported that Brazil has contemplated allowing oil exploration t certain parts of the Amazon as well. So, Can you talk a little bit about these plans and what your thoughts are relative to success?

Jeremy Campbell (18:58):

Absolutely. Yeah. So it is good news that donor countries like Germany, like Norway, like France, like the United States, actually, the United States has pledged just under, I think around seven 50 million to the Amazon Fund, which is an international, it's based in Brazil, but it's an international scoped fund to try to set up conservation areas to set up sustainable business practices, to support community led conservation and all these sorts of things, which really are project by project wonderful examples of keeping the social, the environmental, and the economic flowing in the right direction. So that's to be applauded. But I think you're right. It's a drop in the bucket when compared to the potential revenues that Petrobras, which is Brazil's largest company, and the second largest petroleum company on the planet Sees when they look at oil exploration in the Amazon, and specifically in a place that is all in the news right now. Brazil has been investing in offshore oil drilling technology in the southern part, uh, near Rio, near Sao Paulo.

Jeremy Campbell (20:06):

But a lot of oil has been found just where the Amazon River empties into the Atlantic. It's called the Falls of the Amazon. And so they are moving ahead quickly to begin to develop that area. And we're talking, if it's 1.1 billion that the French and the Germans and the Norwegians have pledged for doling out projects over the next couple years, we'll see 200, 300 multiples of that when it comes to the oil revenue based upon what's there in the offshore area. So the question then is, is that a good idea? Does that not

Gregory Washington (20:37):

Well, we, well, well, we can tell you that it's not a good idea once you have a spill. Uh, but the reality is, my fundamental philosophy on deposits of hydrocarbons in the ground is that people are going to develop 'em. To the extent that we develop technologies for mitigation, we need to, The reality of the situation is until the planet forces us to stoP, man will pull those hydrocarbons out of the ground and we'll burn them.

Jeremy Campbell (21:08):

I tend to agree with you, provided that it isn't too expensive to get them out. There has to be an economic kind of motivator. And right now, at least for the foreseeable, we see oil selling at a high enough level to justify those offshore investments, which are in the billions themselves To get started. But I absolutely agree with you. And so then I think if we're realists about it, we need to think about mitigation. We need to think about, okay, with those tax revenues going into the public coffers of Brazilian nations or multicultural corporations, what is the dividend that needs to be paid forward to the Amazon to make sure that the commitment to climate change that you're getting by pumping those hydrocarbons outta the ground can be mitigated with the peoples and places? Here's a, a moment of hope, guarded hope next year in November of 2025, so 18 months from now, Brazil will be hosting the 30th meeting of the Convention of the Parties, COP, so COP Paris,

Jeremy Campbell (22:07):

Right, The Paris Agreement, et cetera. Copenhagen, Brazil and other Amazonian nations are eager, very eager to appear to be doing right by the Amazon, which they understand to be simultaneously a globally important asset, but also their particular sovereign ground, right? So Brazil, Brazil is not interested in any, in the UN or the US coming in and taking it over, right? But they are interested in a COP or in a huge international meeting being able to tell a good story about what they're doing. And so if they're gonna move ahead to your point, right? If they're gonna get those hydrocarbons out of the continental shelf, off the Falls of the Amazon, when everyone knows that, right? What can they do when they're up there on that stage to say, this is what we're doing to make sure that the Amazon is not gonna be the victim of these or other kinds of economic development schemes?

Jeremy Campbell (23:02):

And so many of the people that I work with are pressing hard, both publicly and quietly in the back halls of power in Brasilia and other Amazonian capitals to make sure there can be some kind of, okay, if you're gonna do this, or you're gonna continue with agriculture as well, 'cause we could talk about deforestation, right? We need to have some real commitments, some measured commitments, and a plan on how to get there when it comes to putting the brakes on deforestation, protecting human rights, protecting biodiversity, and really investing in the potential there that's in the Amazon.

Gregory Washington (23:33):

That leads me to my next question, and let me make it a little more specific. So what would you like to see in a response to outcomes like this, right? Not just from the Brazilian government, but from other governments in the United Nations. From the United States for crying out loud, right?. So what would you like to see in terms of a, a response?

Jeremy Campbell (23:56):

So I think that the United States and the Brazilian government and all governments, and for that matter, NGOs and consumers, need to pay a little bit more attention to what's going on in the Amazon. And that's where I think getting some of that pretty basic, but often lacking context out there about the Amazon, that it is as big as it is, that it is really diverse. I mean, I, I don't think I mentioned this, but this is a good time to sort of say there's 300 different languages spoken in the Amazon.

Speaker 2 (24:27):

Really?

Jeremy Campbell (24:28):

Yeah, yeah, 300 different Amerindian languages to say nothing of the, the colonial languages, Spanish and Portuguese and French and and English, right? And many, many different kinds of societies. There are 2 million indigenous people. There are roughly 6 million Quilombola or Maroon communities. These are descendants of enslaved people who escaped slavery to the Amazon. A lot of people don't appreciate this, that Brazil was actually the destination of most enslaved Africans who were forced to cross in the middle passage.

Gregory Washington (25:00):

Is that for sugar primarily, or what was it?

Jeremy Campbell (25:02):

For sugar. For sugar in the Northeast and for coffee in the south of the country, right? And so enslaved people's fleeing for freedom would go to a place that was relatively uninhabited and set up their own communities called Quilombos starting in the 1600s, right? They would trade with indigenous people. Sometimes they would fight with indigenous peoples. But there were cultures set up, uh, Afro-Brazilian cultures set up that are thoroughly Amazonian and are thoroughly unique with their own cultural, religious, and subsistence practices. You have riverside communities as well, who are the descendants of, I talked about the rubber boom after the rubber bust when there was no more money in the very laborious production of rubber in the Amazon. The communities that were brought there, stayed there and basically hunted and fished and had a relationship with the environment. That was a very sustainable and interesting one. And so the Amazon, in addition to being an urbanized place, is also a place of tremendous social and cultural diversity. And it's a place of poverty, it's a place of corruption, it's a place of international crime. It's a place where all of this is happening. And so, as with any place, I mean, think again, it's, it's the size of the lower 48. Is there one policy solution to all the problems in the lower 48 United States?

Gregory Washington (26:20):

Of course not.

Jeremy Campbell (26:21):

So there are many different things that we need to think about that most of the time when we're in international audience, we just think climate or biodiversity or forest.

Gregory Washington (26:31):

Right. We just think, yeah, stop deforesting.

Jeremy Campbell (26:34):

Uh, and we need to That's absolutely crucial.

Gregory Washington (26:36):

No, I get it, I get it. But what I hear you saying is that it's more than that.

Jeremy Campbell (26:39):

Yeah. It really is. And so real partnership, real engagement, government to government or corporate or consumers needs to appreciate that diversity of the Amazon, needs to appreciate that Amazonian people have a lot to contribute to the world in terms of being stewards of the environment, in terms of the knowledge that they have and that they can share with us. But that, that has to be done in an equitable way. It's not the case that we can go save the Amazon from the United States, you know, like parachuting in. Their capacity is, is actually there in the region, but also the forces that are leading to its destruction are there in the region. Not to make this too political, but if you're in the United States and you're in higher education like you and I are, chances are you may be invested in a TIAA retirement account. Full disclosure, I've done research on this. I have the receipts, but they're not the only ones. Okay. So don't get at me, TIAA, please. They've invested, and subsequently, once this came to light, they divested, but they were investing in ranch properties on recently deforested land on the edges of the Amazon. And so, in other words, they were good investments, these ranches were accruing in value. But I didn't know, and maybe you didn't know that your own retirement is vested in, you know, deforestation.

Gregory Washington (28:01):

This is, this is the very first time I'm hearing about it. Wow.

Jeremy Campbell (28:04):

People are concerned about meat. And they should be, because it was the case in the 1980s and 1990s that Brazil was exporting meat grown on deforested land to the United States. That has stopped. So it's actually not the case that we should go after McDonald's for selling Amazonian beef in the United States, 'cause they don't. But that beef is going to China, so the rest of the world is engaged in benefiting from the Amazon's destruction. But the rest of the world can also show up in solidarity with the people who are the true stewards of the land, who are the indigenous and traditional people.

Gregory Washington (28:41):

The, the reality is, is the people who are there trying to survive as well, right?

Jeremy Campbell (28:47):

That’s right, yep.

Gregory Washington (28:47):

And it's hard to tell them, hey, make a change in your lifestyle now and suffer now, starve now so that somebody in America or some other country could have a better quality of life, 10, 20, 30 years from now, right? And that's what makes it hard and a little self-serving when we sit here.

Jeremy Campbell (29:13):

Yeah, right. I'd agree with that. And, and that actually brings to mind something that you ask how the US or how outsiders could engage. And one thing that I think we can do is support sustainable commodity chains, right? So verifiable chains of value that begin in the Amazon, and maybe the product goes to the United States, maybe just goes to urban Brazil or urban Argentina. But the majority of that profit gets reinvested in the local community. It does not get captured by a middleman or by the urban retailer, but instead it really gets returned much like shade grown coffee, you might think of that, right. It's not a good example for the Amazon, but you probably have heard, and maybe you've enjoyed acai, the wonderful super fruit from the Amazon, right? Yeah. Well, it is really wonderful and it's, it's a great way for the Amazon to be exported all throughout the world. But 90% of the economic value chain of acai rests outside the Amazon. Only 10% rests in the actual cultivation of the Amazon. So that needs to be switched, right?

Gregory Washington (30:22):

Not surprised by that, right.

Jeremy Campbell (30:24):

Yeah. Yeah.

Gregory Washington (30:25):

So talk to me a little bit about Mason's Institute for Sustainable Earth and how it's involved with what's going on in Amazonia.

Jeremy Campbell (30:32):

So we, at the ISC, the Institute for a Sustainable Earth, are involved in a lot of different projects with partners in the region, but we're also supporting a lot of really talented Mason faculty who are working on a variety of issues. And really what we try to do, our kind of theory of the case that the ISE, is to bring together teams that are interdisciplinary to do research that can be of impact, be of consequence, right? And so along those lines, I actually had the privilege of convening a high-level international symposium, I guess is the best way to to think about it, back in January of 2023, where we went to the Smithsonian Mason School of Conservation up in front Royal, spent a couple days really hashing out the priorities for international interdisciplinary research that includes communities that valorizes and really platforms scientists working in the region at Brazilian Peruvian Bolivian institutions,

Jeremy Campbell (31:38):

right so that it's a real partnership as opposed to, uh, global northern institution coming in and making the discoveries or taking the credit. And it was really eye-opening. We came out, we published a, a paper, basically a white paper, laying out what some of the big priorities are, and also where we want some of the funding mechanisms to go, whether it's agency funding for research or corporate funding or foundation funding for conservation, how that needs to be thought about and maybe redistributed in the context of the tipping point in the context of we have 10 years to make as much progress as possible with halting deforestation, with supporting the human right and dignity of Amazonian peoples with building socio, bio economy value chains that return economic investment to the region without cutting down the forest.

Gregory Washington (32:36):

So Tom Lovejoy coined that tipping point phrase in 2018. What progress have we made since then?

Jeremy Campbell (32:44):

Overall, we have done a good job since 2018, getting the word out. People are tuned into the Amazon more today than they have been, I would say since the 1988, 1989 forest fires grabbed the headlines and made the cover of Time Magazine. Remember Time Magazine?

Gregory Washington (33:01):

I do.

Jeremy Campbell (33:01):

So that was, that was a big deal, right?

Gregory Washington (33:03):

That that was. So for those of you who don't know who Tom Lovejoy is, he was a world-renowned faculty member and Mason professor. And he was studying, spent a good bit of his life studying biodiversity in the Amazon, and would often take groups of very wealthy and very famous individuals, whether were actors and actresses. And I saw what Leonardo DiCaprio and

Jeremy Campbell (33:32):

That's right. Mel Gibson.

Gregory Washington (33:34):

Mel Gibson, Cameron Diaz, and all of those people, Angelina Jolie, he would take them right into the Amazon to learn what you and I are talking about right now.

Jeremy Campbell (33:46):

That’s right. And so Tom's

Gregory Washington (33:47):

And to physically see the diversity and to see the wildlife that was there.

Jeremy Campbell (33:53):

It makes such a difference to be up close and personal. And Tom knew that Tom understood the power of the forest and the power of making that connection with the wildlife and with the people of the Amazon. And so

Gregory Washington (34:06):

Are we still doing that now, or has that subsided with Tom's passing?

Jeremy Campbell (34:10):

We are still actively engaged as a mason community with the Forest Fragments project that he was basically his brainchild and which is under the care of one of our partner organizations, the Amazonian Institute for Research. We actually have a graduate student that is funded through an ISC grant doing research right there where Tom Lovejoy took Angelina Jolie and, and Tom Cruise. We've had regular check-ins. We have one of our colleagues, Dr. David Luther, continues to do research there. And Tom's legacy really has been putting that part of the Amazon on the map. I think it's inspired a whole lot of consciousness raising in the English-speaking world about what's going on in the Amazon. And so what we're trying to do at the ISE is press that forward, really press that legacy forward.

Gregory Washington (34:58):

I got to spend a lot of time with Tom before he passed, and just one of the nicest people on Earth. I hate it we lost him so soon.

Jeremy Campbell (35:06):

He's a towering figure still, for some reason, the phrase science diplomat comes to mind, right, 'cause he was thoroughly a scientist.

Gregory Washington (35:15):

You would routinely, when I would have these meetings at his home, which was extraordinarily modest, right? It's such a Tom Lovejoy home, right? But you would routinely have the ambassador from Brazil or some dignitary from some foreign country. Some industrial leader.

Jeremy Campbell (35:34):

Or a World Bank president.

Gregory Washington (35:36):

A world bank president. Yeah. You’d routinely have those individuals at his home as well.

Jeremy Campbell (35:41):

And as you say, he was so modest, so humble, but so passionate and singularly focused that the story about the Amazon got out there. And in addition to being a, an incredible advocate and a bridger of dialogues and a diplomat, he was also a brilliant scientist. But also the whole debt for nature idea where impoverished nations would have some of their debt forgiven in exchange for conserving areas and keeping them pristine. That was his idea, right? So I mean, practical applications that have really left their mark on the world.

Gregory Washington (36:17):

And it's better and it was better than writing the debt off, right?

Jeremy Campbell (36:20):

That's right. That's right.

Gregory Washington (36:21):

No, outstanding, outstanding. So talk to me a little bit about your research. What is it you do, what are your next steps?

Jeremy Campbell (36:30):

Yeah, great. Thank you for that. I, as I said, I'm a cultural anthropologist and I've been working with native people and other traditional riverside communities who are really taking the lead in defending their own lands. The phrase for this is forest defenders, although it goes by lots of different names depending on the language you're speaking. But it entails physically defending land from loggers, from miners, from government agencies that might want to do something different with the land. And doing so not only through the physical demarcation, but through political alliances, with non-profits, with advocacy organizations, with researchers. My role specifically has been in helping the sociocultural and environmental mapping of these areas so that there can be some translation of traditional ecological knowledge that's associated with a landscape into a kind of language that maybe an ecologist or a politician might understand as well, right? And so it's really fascinating, the interplay between the kind of ethic of responsibility to lands and non-humans and waters that an indigenous person has, and how that lines up with how an ecologist sees the interaction and interdependence of species and the abiotic world and, uh, climate, et cetera.

Jeremy Campbell (37:54):

And so I sit at that node where indigenous peoples are organizing for their own defense, facing an existential threat, but helping connect them with data, with science, with storytellers, so that they can tell those stories. And I'll give you an example. The people that I've been working with for the past 10 years now, the Munduruku, have been tremendously successful in demarcating lands that were slated for, to basically to go to the bottom of a lake, a reservoir, that was going to be behind the world's second largest dam. But they stood up and organized themselves and protected their sacred land, protected the relationships that they have with non-humans. And were able to shelve that dam and have become sort of a real inspiration to other indigenous and traditional societies throughout the Amazon, standing up to not just dams; and dams, we can have a debate about whether that's green power, whether it's not.

Jeremy Campbell (38:47):

But what they were really standing up to do was to stand up and say, we're here. I’m moved by their courage and the courage of others like them who stand up. And we see it with indigenous peoples here in, in North America as well, who stand up and refuse to say we are in the past, who refuse that may be social expectation that whether it's assimilation or you've given up your culture, that the expectation that indigenous people are, are no longer among us. And the Munduruku and others in the Amazon are standing up and saying, we're here and we know how to steward these lands. We know how to make sure that the biogeochemical cycles and hydrological cycles continue. They wouldn't say it in those terms, but the terms that they would use would be about balance, reciprocity, relationship with the forces of life that course around us.

Jeremy Campbell (39:43):

So the ecology and the traditional learning really go hand in hand. And then we get them to policy through making arguments, through communication strategies, through raising awareness. There's a big push that I'm part of, and that the ISE is part of and supporting to try to preserve 80% of the Amazon by 2025. Now that's next year, we're not quite there. About 50% of the Amazon is officially protected, whether you're talking about national forests or national parks or indigenous lands, about 20% of it is deforested and urbanized, which leaves 30% up for grabs. And we're not gonna get there next year through a stroke of the pen to lock up the other 30% of it. The task here is to raise awareness and to, even in the 30% that remains, make sure that whatever happens to it, it's sustainable. That we don't see it kind of a zero-sum game. It's either a park or a paved cityscape right. There can actually be sustainable, thriving, living landscapes with people in them whose economic models are not based on extraction and destruction.

Gregory Washington (40:54):

How much time do you spend in Brazil?

Jeremy Campbell (40:55):

Well, I've got two small kids, so not as much as I used to. I'm sure you know how that goes. ... 9-year-old twins actually. Boy, girl twins. They keep me busy. But I'm down there once or twice a year usually to check up on research and to engage my research partners, but also to create new opportunities for Mason. I mentioned we've got some great faculty here that are working. We've got, uh, David Luther who works on birds. We've got Louise Shelley in the Schar School who works on transnational criminal networks, which is a big thing in the Peruvian, Colombian, Brazilian Amazon. So I've been working with her a little bit on sort of how to have conversations about rule of law and cross-border diplomacy when it comes to not just drug trafficking, but get this trafficking of species, trafficking of huge fish, the pirarucu, which is a fish that can grow up to 50, 60 kilos that is caught in Brazil, and then brought into Colombia illegally to feed an urban frontier in Colombia and, and Peru.

Jeremy Campbell (41:56):

So money laundering, drug trafficking species, et cetera, Louisehas been doing some really great work with the IUCN on traceability. You got Mike Gilmore, who's working in Peru on anti-road demonstrations and building a biocultural corridor with the Maijuna people. So I don't just go to Brazil, that's where most of my research is, but I'm also working with Mason faculty, trying to connect them better and, and really get their research out into the community and the community present in what we do here at Mason, so. I used to live in Brazil. I lived in Brazil for three years. So I have dear friends and colleagues and family, so I wish I could get there more, but we've got good stuff going on here too in Fairfax.

Gregory Washington (42:39):

So your award-winning book, “Conjuring Property: Speculation and Environmental Futures in the Brazilian Amazon,” gives a good sense of the conflict between indigenous land rights and the corporate colonization of the land for agriculture, for ranching, for mining, and for deforestation that goes along with that. So can you talk a little bit about the book? Give us a sense of how this all plays out in actuality.

Jeremy Campbell (43:10):

It's not unlike, if you think about sort of the 19th century story of the United States, this whole idea of manifest destiny, that the western part of the continent was for the taking of the proud, ambitious pioneer, usually white, the bro, the white man, right?

Gregory Washington (43:28):

The, the few, the bold.

Jeremy Campbell (43:29):

Exactly, right. So Brazil, it's a very different country than the United States. I don't want to suggest that it's the, the same, but it is continental in scale and in size. And often it has at different key moments in its history likened itself to the United States. And so there was a kind of manifest destiny moment in the 1950s and 60s where the Brazilian government, which at the time was a dictatorship, encouraged people to leave the coast of Brazil and move into the Amazon, which in the popular imagination was the next frontier. It was empty. It was a place where you could go and make something of yourself. So there was a ton of propaganda. There was a ton of kind of social engineering to try to move the vast majority of the Brazilian population, which due to it being a colonial export colony, lived along the coast, lived along the places that were close to ports.

Jeremy Campbell (44:25):

The average Brazilian thought of the Amazon as completely empty. The average Brazilian thought of it as a place where if I go and clear the forest, what I'm doing is improving the forest. What I'm doing is I'm making something where there is nothing, this terra nullius kind of idea. And so the book really traces how in the 21st century that idea continues to play out with both rich Brazilians and relatively impoverished Brazilians coming into the region and buying into and reproducing a kind of idea and ideology of the land belonging to them and their being no indigenous people there, and how they actually use land speculation and access to capital and access to political influence to undo some of the conservation and indigenous rights protections that were placed into law in the 1988 Brazilian constitution. So Brazil, as I mentioned, was in a dictatorship in the 1960s coming out of the dictatorship, had some of the most progressive environmental and human rights legislation and constitutional provisions of anywhere in the planet. But we've seen a backslide since then. And so the book really does explore that backslide and, and explore some of the social, political and environmental effects of this idea prevalent in Brazil, but again, I would say it's, it rhymes with what we have in the United States of there being no indigenous people there and it being the nation's goal to fill up this empty space with progress, and then how that motivated people's activities. It's the story that I tell in that book.

Gregory Washington (46:08):

So, uh, you have a friend in Brazil, Alessandra Korap, I, I believe the name is, who is part of one of Brazil's indigenous nations, who you have quoted saying that the resistance from the indigenous population to those who would exploit the Amazon is a fight for all of us. I think I know where this is going. But talk to me about a fight for all of us and what exactly does fight mean?

Jeremy Campbell (46:37):

Alessandra Korap is an amazing person, so I absolutely want to answer your question, but if I can paint just a quick portrait of her. She stands all of maybe four foot one, but has the fight of a thousand people in her. She is 28 years old, a law student, basically went to law school from her village, grew up in a village in the middle of the recesses of the Amazon rainforest, has gone to law school to learn how to fight with the master's tools for the rights of her people. And so when she talks about all of us, what she means, I think, is really in three different registers. First is people like her, indigenous people who have been sidelined, who have been written out of existence, who have been bulldozed. Second, the entire world's population, because she understands, as her elders do, and as her brothers and sisters do, that the work that the Munduruku are doing and, and the other indigenous people are doing, not just in the Amazon, but throughout the world.

Jeremy Campbell (47:47):

Here's another statistic. Indigenous people occupy and manage roughly 23, 24% of the world's terrestrial surface, where 80% of the world's biodiversity can be found; untold, name your metric of environmental service, whether it's clean water or wooden fiber, or carbon sequestration. So the work that indigenous people do, managing actively managing landscapes like the Amazon actually has a global benefit for all humans. So that's the other, all of us. The third all of us is non-human creatures, which for the Munduruku and many Amazonian people are literally relatives, literally brothers, sisters, uncles, cousins. And so there's that depth of compassion and empathy for the freshwater dolphins that you mentioned that literally baked or boiled alive in those warm waters. In Lago Tefe, she sees, Alessandro Korap, sees her advocacy on behalf of her people, on behalf of non-human relatives, and on behalf of all of us, even people, all of us humans, even people who might be her enemy. And so there's a kind of Gandhi-like, uh, stance or a Dr. King's stance to love even the person who would cut you down. That's what Alessandra Korap brings. It's not just me as a good friend and colleague of hers, but she received the, uh, RFK Leadership, Humanitarian Leadership Award two or three years ago. She's been to Switzerland, she's been to Germany, she's been to New York a couple times, really being an international sensation when it comes to advocating for the rights of her people and the rights of nature.

Gregory Washington (49:23):

As we close, talk to me about your level of optimism that we can avoid the worst consequences of the Amazon Basin.

Jeremy Campbell (49:31):

I am cautiously optimistic. My optimism meter goes up a point or two or several points. When I think about the indefatigable work of somebody like Alessandra Korap or other indigenous leaders who, unlike me, I, I have the luxury of being able to be in the thick of it but then come home, right? I can come home to Fairfax, I can come home to the United States. For Alessandra and for Ailton, the struggle's never ending, and they are positive. They are optimistic.

Gregory Washington (50:02):

That's amazing.

Jeremy Campbell (50:04):

They know that the world that they're giving to their children and their grandchildren is a better one, even though it is existentially threatened. So I think we all have to take our lead or, or take their lead and fall in place to do what we can to be innovative, to be a science diplomat in the model of a Tom Lovejoy, and to really try our best. I do think it's inevitable — here's just the caution part — I do think it's inevitable that 20, 30 years from now, the Amazon will be different because the world will be different, right? We've baked in a certain level of warming, we've baked in a certain level of anthropocenic and anthropogenic changes. But from the indigenous perspective, the world already ended in 1500 and has been ending in lots of different kinds of ways, and transforming in lots of different kinds of ways throughout all of that time. You know, 90% of the indigenous people who lived in the Amazon, there were 10 million there in 1500, 90% of 'em died, were gone by the time of 1600, right? So they know a lot about resilience, they know a lot about adaptation. They know a lot about bouncing back. And so I think we can take some inspiration from their lead in that respect, knowing though that the Amazon will be changing, we can nevertheless try to mitigate those changes and adapt to the new situation as it unfolds.

Gregory Washington (51:22):

Well, let's hope we can stay on the right track

Jeremy Campbell (51:25):

Here. Here.

Gregory Washington (51:25):

Jeremy Campbell, associate director for strategic engagement at ��ӽ紫ý's Institute for Sustainable Earth. Thank you for a great conversation.

Jeremy Campbell (51:38):

Thank you, Dr. Washington. It was a pleasure.

Gregory Washington (51:40):

I am Mason President Gregory Washington saying, until next time, stay safe, Mason Nation.

Narrator (51:49):

Access to Excellence Podcast Episodes

Podcast Ep 60 - Marking a decade of success at Mason Korea
August 6, 2024
Podcast Ep 59 - Cybersecurity and the global threats of tomorrow
July 5, 2024
Podcast - Ep 58: What will become of the Amazon?
April 22, 2024
Podcast - Ep 57: Catherine Read, mayor of Fairfax City, Va., is outspoken, unfiltered
March 25, 2024
Podcast - Ep 56: A view from the pulpit
February 16, 2024

In This Story

Topics

Institute for a Sustainable Earth (ISE)

Earth Day

College of Science

Sustainability

Sustainability Research

Amazon Rainforest

Podcast - Ep 57: Catherine Read, mayor of Fairfax City, Va., is outspoken, unfiltered

Damian Cristodero — Mon, 25 Mar 2024 15:10:13 +0000

Podcast - Ep 57: Catherine Read, mayor of Fairfax City, Va., is outspoken, unfiltered Damian Cristodero Mon, 03/25/2024 - 11:10

Fairfax Mayor is outspoken, unfiltered

Catherine Read is the first woman and first ��ӽ紫ý graduate (BA government and politics ’84) to be mayor of Fairfax City, Va., the university’s hometown, and she isn’t shy about touting a university she says helped teach her how to think critically. Want to know why it’s good to “disrupt the system,” why it’s important to get more women into policy-making decisions, and why our educational system doesn’t reward bold ideas? Read tells you in this Women's History Month conversation with Mason President Gregory Washington. She also is adamant that “if we can’t maintain democracy, if we can’t preserve our country’s rule of law, then all of these other things make zero difference.” This podcast was recorded on March 21.

As I started out doing nonprofit advocacy work, I became aware that we did not have enough women around the table for good public policy. A lot of the problems and the issues that exist are because women are not in a position to create policies around, such as, universal pre-K or affordable quality childcare or paid family leave. And you have to ask yourself, why? And it's because women have not been at the table.”

^{~ Catherine S. Read, Mayor, City of Fairfax, Virginia}

Read the Transcript | Fairfax Mayor is outspoken, unfiltered

Narrator (00:04):

Gregory Washington (00:26):

��ӽ紫ý is a school for groundbreakers and trailblazers from globally impactful research to creating lasting change locally and beyond. Mason students, faculty, staff, and alumni put their stamps on their communities every day. With me today is one of those extraordinary alums, Catherine Reed. Class of 1984 with a bachelor's degree in government and politics is the first Mason graduate and the first woman to be mayor of the city of Fairfax, Virginia, the university's hometown. Katherine has dedicated herself to serving and supporting the city and its people. She's a small business owner with a social media consultancy firm. She is a long-time host of Fairfax Public Access shows Inside Scoop, Your Need to Know and Making Change Radio. She is also dedicated to bringing the city of Fairfax and ��ӽ紫ý into a closer partnership and that I can, so well, thank you for. I am so pleased she could be here during Women's History Month of all months to talk about the history she herself is making Catherine Read, welcome to the show.

Catherine Read (01:46):

Thank you so much for having me. It wasn't far to travel, actually, from City Hall to this radio station. Probably not even a mile.

Gregory Washington (01:54):

. Hey. And that's the whole point, right? You are right here. You're right here with us in this community in ��ӽ紫ý.

Catherine Read (02:02):

Well, it's interesting because when I was here, when I arrived in 1981, I moved into the first dormitory ever built. It opened on October 25th, 1981. Prior to that, there were no dormitories. There were the old student apartments, but there was no dormitories. And so that was one of the reasons I chose to come to ��ӽ紫ý. That and the fact that it was in a suburb of Washington DC. I grew up in rural southwest Virginia.

Gregory Washington (02:25):

Yeah, I know you took one of my questions. This is fantastic. Well, let me, let's talk a little bit about things. You have a really interesting background. You have said that you're not a politician, and I can tell by your background why you would say that, but talk a little bit more about what you mean by that.

Catherine Read (02:42):

Well, being mayor was not really in my life plan. I mean, I do have a degree in government and politics and, and people have asked why I changed from being a theater major at Emerson College to being a government and politics major at ��ӽ紫ý. I had an interest in both. I mean, I was very politically aware in fifth grade. During the Nixon McGovern race, I asked my fifth grade teacher if I could do a bulletin board about the presidential race. And he was like, as long as you cover both candidates equally in fifth grade, I was politically aware. I watched the Watergate hearings, the summer of the Watergate hearings I can remember most clearly as yesterday. So even though I had a love for theater and thought that's what I wanted to do as a career, I've always had an interest in politics. But not necessarily as I got older, seeing myself in a political role. As I started out doing nonprofit advocacy work, I became aware that we did not have enough women in the rooms where decisions were being made.

Catherine Read (03:39):

There were not enough women around the table for good public policy. A lot of the problems and the issues that exist and still exist are because women are not in a position to create policies around like universal pre-K or affordable quality childcare. Or paid family leave. There's not even paid parental leave, maternity leave that doesn't exist in this country. And you have to ask yourself, why? And it's because women have not been at the table to make policies that benefit women and families. And so I became an advocate working with nonprofits, but also electing more women to public office. So I know a lot of women in this region who sit in positions of power like Phyllis Randall out Loudoun County. I knew Phyllis before she was running for the Loudoun County Board of Supervisors, Katie Cristol. She and I sat on panels before she was ever on the Arlington County Board. All of these women that I've worked with for over 15 years trying to figure out how we get women in the room where it happens. So I always saw myself in that role, not in the elected role, but being the person who helps women who see themselves in the elected role get into those seats.

Gregory Washington (04:52):

Well, we are dealing with a time in the US House where, what is it? I think it's up to 29% women now. So 128 out of the 440 members. You know, it's a high watermark, but not where we need to be.

Catherine Read (05:11):

No. In 2013, I remember working for women candidates in 2013. We were 47th in the United States for the percentage of women in our legislature. Virginia was very low. And that year, 24 women ran for office. In the journal assembly. 12 were incumbents, including Charniele Herring, who's also a Mason alumna. That is true. Charnel was an incumbent in 2013, and there were 12 challengers and all 12 incumbents won, and all 12 challengers lost. When you look back and you think, well, 2013, that's just 11 years ago. Look how far we've come in 11 years from that to where we are now. You look in the House, you look in the Senate, you see women, you see women with babies. You see women who have given birth in office. You see women with school aged children. And that didn't exist a decade ago. It just didn't.

Gregory Washington (06:06):

So when you were elected in 2022, you became the first alum, as I said, and first woman to be mayor of Fairfax. Did that dawn on you? Were you thinking, look, I wanna be a trailblazer here?

Catherine Read (06:17):

You know, it was funny because somebody from the Washington Post said, are you running on being the first woman mayor? And I'm like, are you kidding me? Did you see how that worked out for Hillary? No. , no. I don't talk about it at all because it's a double-edged sword. Right? People don't wanna hear about gender, even if it's a factual statement. People don't wanna hear about gender. They want you to make a case for why I should be elected based on my vision, my commitment, my background, my skillset. And same with being a ��ӽ紫ý alumna. I mean, I did not talk about that, but I talk about it all the time now that I'm in office.

Gregory Washington (06:51):

Yeah, look, I see here what the City of Fairfax Women's History Month proclamation stated that there have been only 15 women elected to Fairfax City Council since 1961 and only two women ever elected to Virginia statewide office in the Commonwealth's 500-year history. Right? Yeah. We have a history of government here longer than, literally longer than the country's age. By a wide margin. mean, it's not even close. And we still have not had

Catherine Read (07:23):

Well, so we don't, we haven't had a

Gregory Washington (07:24):

Woman governor. Two elected officers, one of them is sitting in her seat right now.

Catherine Read (07:29):

Right now. So, there was a long time between Mary Sue Terry, who was attorney general in the late 1980s, and Winsome Earle-Sears, who's the current 42nd lieutenant governor, those are the only two in the 405 year history. It's been five centuries. We have the longest, continuously operating legislative body in the Western Hemisphere. And the fact that we as the Commonwealth of Virginia have not been able to elect a woman governor in five centuries, people should be asking themselves, it's not about the candidates. There are plenty of qualified women. So if it's not about the candidates, then we have to ask ourselves, is it about the voters? So I had an interesting conversation At a political event

Gregory Washington (08:09):

Okay, this is getting really interesting. Let's go

Catherine Read (08:12):

At a political event hosted by Gerry Connolly, which he does every St Patrick's Day, the holiest day of the year, according to Congressman Connolly. And he has a big event where, and it's all Democrats. And you know, I was talking about a potential ticket in 2025 of candidate for governor, lieutenant governor, and Commonwealth attorney, and a longtime friend of mine, someone who I just love and respect. She goes, well, we can't do that. I'm like, why? She goes, well, it's three women. I'm like, Judy, you did not just say that. Did you just say the Commonwealth of Virginia could not, would not, will not elect three women to the top offices 'cause that's what I just heard you say. She goes, well, yeah, I don't think that they could get elected. I'm like, wow. Wow. And wow. This is 2024. And you're telling me, I said, do you remember what Ruth Bader Ginsburg said when somebody asked how many women Supreme Court justices will be enough? And she said, when there are nine, because no one ever questioned the fact that we've had nine male Supreme Court justices. Why should anyone question if there are nine women? But I just had a long-time feminist activist woman say to me, oh, three women on a ticket. Oh, that won't work.

Gregory Washington (09:25):

You know, that's interesting that you bring that up. Not only is it commonplace for there to be only men on the ticket, it is clear that even some, I assume you're talking about a Democratic ticket. Yes, yes. That even some of the Democratic party would be uncomfortable with a ticket of all women. We have a saying, I'm an engineer. We have an old saying. Every system is designed to get the results it gets. If the system's giving you a certain result, that's because that's the way it was designed. Those are those results it was designed to give you, well, this is a primary example of that. This is exactly an outcome, that's a part of a system of which all of us are included that we produce even when we're not thinking about it. Those kinds of things have to be disrupted. They have to be changed. It's people like you that change 'em. So this is fantastic. I did not think we were gonna go in this direction. These questions are not on my card.

Catherine Read (10:23):

Well, that's okay. Because I under, I understand that you kind of a are freethinking, freewheeling, and I love that about you. It's kind of like that is true. Go where the conversation takes you. And you're right about disrupting systems. And it's kind of like, how was I the first woman mayor in 2022? Because it was the first time municipal elections were held in November instead of May. Historically, and this is part of the Virginia Constitution, and it's part of the Byrd Machine.

Gregory Washington (10:47):

Preach. Teach on this one. Go ahead.

Catherine Read (10:48):

Right. So every other year in May, 20% of registered voters voted. 20% of a hundred percent chose the mayor and city council since 1961. And I call that voter suppression. That's when I call it. When you have a system, to your point about what the system produces, when you have a system that consistently produces 20% or less over 60 years, then the system is working the way it was designed to work. So we had 15 women who were elected to city council over that period of 60 years. And there were many, many years where it was an all male city council and a male mayor. And that's what May elections produced. It produced a consistent constituency who decided that that is what they wanted their government to look like. So in 2022, when we moved to November, 59% of registered voters came out to vote, which meant two thirds of those voters had never voted for mayor and city council before.

Gregory Washington (11:46):

And you got a different outcome,

Catherine Read (11:47):

Different electorate, different outcome.

Gregory Washington (11:49):

Exactly. A different system.

Catherine Read (11:52):

Different system. .

Gregory Washington (11:55):

Amazing. Amazing. So when did you feel as if you were making history?

Catherine Read (11:59):

You know, I didn't really. I do now, because it matters to young women who want representation. Like you can't be what you can't see. I have a Girl Scout troop that's coming to City Hall. This is interesting too, because Deepak Madala, who I worked with at Virginia Poverty Law Center, and he just reached out to me and said, my daughter's Girl Scout troop would like to come to city council and meet with you and take a tour of the City Hall. And I said, well, that would be wonderful. And then it's occurred to me, I've never seen Girl Scouts in City Hall. Boy Scouts come to do the Pledge of Allegiance. We got lots of Boy Scout troops that come to the meetings and they have for years. But to my memory, I've never seen a Girl Scout troop in City Hall. So I'm like, yes, absolutely. Bring them. And I said, and I will ask the women on staff to come down. It's gonna be late in the afternoon to come down so that these girls can see the different kinds of people, the different women who have jobs in government besides the mayor. We have a deputy city manager, the city registrar, uh, Asian American woman. We have so many women. And these girls need to see.

Gregory Washington (13:03):

That's exactly right. That's how you change the vision of the future. This is Women's History Month. Who are the women you look up to?

Catherine Read (13:11):

Greta Thunberg.

Gregory Washington (13:12):

That's interesting.

Catherine Read (13:13):

It is because I tell you, young people at a certain point in their lives don't understand that things aren't possible. Kids come into this world curious and they learn all the time. And they ask questions and they have bold ideas. But a lot of times our educational system doesn't always reward that. And so as time goes on, you start to realize that what gets rewarded is hitting benchmarks and achievements and checking off boxes. That is what is rewarded. And all your big bold ideas somehow are not something you start to believe in. But Greta Thunberg does. Greta Thunberg is like, I can change the world. There are young women out there that I think will go forward boldly without considering the fact that they could fail or consider the fact that it could be wasted effort, because it, that's not what is driving them.

Catherine Read (14:07):

What is driving her and what is driving a lot of young women is the fact that they see a problem that needs to be solved, like climate change. They feel an urgency that it needs to be solved now. And they don't doubt their ability to move the needle forward. And a lot of times you take criticism, I look at Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, or even Nancy Pelosi, right? Two different generations. And those two women are not on really on the same page. But each of them has taken their fair share of criticism over what they have committed themselves to do in moving the needle forward in a way that they think serves the greater good.

Gregory Washington (14:45):

That's exactly right. And when time came to support one another, they did. Do you get what I'm saying?

Catherine Read (14:51):

Yes I do. And I think, and you know, and I heard Liz Cheney speak at the, uh, Richmond Forum like, uh, last month. And listening to Liz Cheney speak too, she was on the Rachel Maddow Show. That's another example of how two women who will tell you they don't agree on most things. RAnd yet Liz Cheney was on Rachel Maddow's show because what they do agree on is our country and our democracy comes first above partisanship, above politics. Because if we can't maintain democracy, if we can't preserve our country's rule of law, then all of these other things make zero difference.

Gregory Washington (15:27):

Yeah, I really like Liz Cheney. I saw her maybe about a year ago when she came, right before she was ousted. She came to DC to give a speech. And I happened to be able to meet her then. She's phenomenal.

Catherine Read (15:41):

She is. And, again, this is a woman who took a stand and got kicked out of her own party. But you have to admire women like that, right?

Gregory Washington (15:49):

She got kicked out of Congress.

Catherine Read (15:51):

True. She got kicked outta Congress.

Gregory Washington (15:54):

She got kicked outta Congress. I don't think she got kicked outta her party.

Catherine Read (15:58):

Well, it'll be interesting to see what she does. I don't know what a path forward is for her, but she hasn't given up and she's using her influence in her platform to speak her truth.

Gregory Washington (16:07):

That's right. I love principled people who stand on right. And fight for what they believe in.

Catherine Read (16:13):

Me too.

Gregory Washington (16:14):

Yeah, so you've been in this job now, how long?

Catherine Read (16:17):

15 months. And I'm already running for reelection.

Gregory Washington (16:19):

Okay, well look, that's the nature of the beast, right?

Catherine Read (16:22):

Uh, every, every other year. Yes.

Gregory Washington (16:23):

That’s right. So 15 months, is the job what you thought it would be?

Catherine Read (16:27):

Some of it, but no. First of all, people are like, well, it's a part-time job, right? I'm like, no, it's 365 days a year, 24/7. And a lot of that is because of email, social media and smartphones. Sometimes I think about former mayor John Mason, who was the longest serving mayor from 1990 to 2002. He recently passed away. And I'm thinking John Mason probably got up when he was mayor on a Sunday and read The Washington Post. I get up every single morning and look at my work email. I look at my smartphone and I see what text messages and what emails have come in. And

Gregory Washington (17:01):

From the night before,

Catherine Read (17:02):

From the night before and overnight.

Gregory Washington (17:04):

While you were sleeping.

Catherine Read (17:04):

Well, yeah. And I sit on regional committees too, so I really didn't understand that part of it. I sit on the Metropolitan Washington Council of Governments, which meets once a month. The national, I mean the Northern Virginia Transportation Commission, the Northern Virginia Transportation Authority, and the Northern Virginia Regional Commission. That is four monthly meetings a month. Right. But it's important because we are a region. And I'm committed to doing that work. But again, there is so much to this, it's not a part-time job. A podcast I really like a lot is Pod Virginia, Michael Pope and Lauren Burke do a twice a week podcast. And they, it is all Virginia politics. But one of the things on Tuesday's episode that they were talking about is what the House of Delegates gets paid.

Gregory Washington (17:48):

Oh, that's ridiculous.

Catherine Read (17:49):

Well, $18,000 a year. But they're a part-time legislature, right?

Gregory Washington (17:53):

Yeah. But it's not true.

Catherine Read (17:54):

It's not. And so they were talking about the fact that, again, we were talking about is it the candidate or is it the voters? But in this particular case, is it the fact that these people don't deserve to be paid a living wage or a fair wage? Or is it the fact that people just believe that this is some sort of volunteer job and we're just honored to do it, but it's an equity issue. I can do this job. I don't do, people are like, do you have a day job? I'm like, well, I used to do many things that I don't do anymore. I do the mayor job every day, every week. That's right. I'm on all the time. And I said, so this is not a part-time job, but it pays $13,000 a year. So if I had to pay my mortgage with what I make as mayor, it wouldn't work.

Gregory Washington (18:36):

That's exactly right. And that's why you have people of substantial means being the ones that run for office, because they are the ones who can afford to.

Catherine Read (18:45):

And it's not representative government. So we need to care about that.

Gregory Washington (18:49):

We are getting deep.

Catherine Read (18:49):

Well, we have to. You know, I got a great education. I got a great education at ��ӽ紫ý.

Gregory Washington (18:54):

You know what? I was about to say the same thing. Boy, those ��ӽ紫ý professors have indoctrinated you well.

Catherine Read (19:01):

They taught me to question everything and to look deeply into government . But I do think

Gregory Washington (19:05):

This is amazing. I gotta pinch myself a little bit. So let me back up and see if I could get us back on track here. I was asking you about role models is how we got on this one, right? Let me ask you one more question in, in, in this segment and then move on. If you could sit down with any woman in history, any woman, who would it be and what would you wanna know from her?

Catherine Read (19:25):

It would be Eleanor Roosevelt. It would be Eleanor Roosevelt. You know, the more I learn about history, the more I admire that woman. And just when you think you know everything about somebody, you find out something else.

Gregory Washington (19:38):

Nice.

Catherine Read (19:39):

Like the Golden 13, I asked an American Legion full of veterans if they knew who the Golden 13 had ever heard of the Golden 13. And no one had. It is the first 13 Black naval officers that were trained during World War II in 1943. And they were called the Golden 13. And they didn't even know why they were selected. They went through a three-month training program in 10 weeks. They did so well that they were accused of cheating and had to take some of those tests over again, which they passed. But this was because of Eleanor Roosevelt. Eleanor Roosevelt is the one who pushed for training Black naval officers. The USS Mason, which is over there fighting off Somali pirates, when I heard something about the USS Mason, I remembered from the book the Golden 13, that that ship was built in commissioned during World War II because it was going to have an all Black crew. And they called the USS Mason Eleanor’s Folly. This is why, no matter how much we think we know about history, there is so much more to know. And I would love to know what Eleanor knew and all the things that she was behind that no one knows

Gregory Washington (20:47):

. Catherine, can I ask you a question? Can I, can I You are hitting me with zingers, man. Wow. This is fantastic. Okay, look, let's back up a little bit and talk about your time as a student at Mason. You said earlier from Southwest Virginia came to Mason from Emerson College where you were a theater major. So how do you make that flip? How do you go from being a theater major in Boston to a government and politics major at Mason? That's a flip

Catherine Read (21:18):

It is. It is. But like I said, I'd always had a deep interest in both. And when I realized theater was probably not a good career choice. And I have to tell you, I'd never been off the farm when I went to Emerson. I went to Emerson College in 1980 on a Greyhound bus with a steamer trunk and electric typewriter and $20 in cash and a work study job and a Pell Grant and a lot of scholarship. I had the International Thespian Society Scholarship, the Elizabeth Taylor Warner Scholarship for the Dramatic Arts had all this one-time money and a grant from the school. But I'd never been to Boston. I'd never seen the school. So I get on this Greyhound bus leaving Roanoke. 15 hours changed buses at Port Authority in New York. I loved every single second of my time in Boston. Loved it.

Gregory Washington (22:02):

Boston is a great university town.

Catherine Read (22:06):

It is. Oh, it's oh, every, yes. Every so many schools we used go to them.

Gregory Washington (22:08):

Don't let, don't let anybody fool you.

Catherine Read (22:10):

Yeah. $1 movies at MIT and we prayed they didn't check student IDs. So we would go over there and watch first run movies at MIT. But I realized that the kids who were there, it was a small school because it had about 1500 undergraduates. And ��ӽ紫ý was the same size.

Gregory Washington (22:26):

We're not the same size now.

Catherine Read (22:27):

Not anymore, right? . And so in 1980, Mason literally had the number one debate team in the nation. Their forensics team just knocked everyone out. And I had never heard of ��ӽ紫ý, even though I lived in Virginia my entire life. I'd never heard of this school. And so when I decided I couldn't afford to stay at Emerson and that theater was not a good career choice by which to have an independent life, I started looking at ��ӽ紫ý strictly because of my interaction with the Mason forensics team. And so I ended up applying to Mason.

Gregory Washington (22:57):

Did you tell them that? That is something that they should know, by the way. Fantastic. Fantastic.

Catherine Read (23:02):

Yeah. I mean, I was on the forensics team in high school, but the funny thing is, once I got here, I had a work study job. I had a series of work study jobs here on campus and I ended up not joining the forensics team. Like I didn't do forensics at Mason, even though that's what brought me here. But I did get a great education working my on campus jobs. And I will tell you this, I learned as much working jobs at Mason as I did in the classroom. Absolutely. I mean, you interact with staff and faculty in a different way. I was doing data entry for the chair of the American Studies Department, and we are still friends all this time later, Hans Bergman and I are still friends, still talk to each other over LinkedIn. And I worked in the copy center at Thompson Hall binding reports and hot gluing things.

Catherine Read (23:47):

And that was one of my work study jobs. I was a desk receptionist at the dorm. That was one of my work study jobs. And you know, I worked my way through school. And I will tell you Mason at that time was attractive for a lot of reasons. But I could afford to go here. I could afford to work my way through school. I had student loans, but it didn't take me 20 years to pay off my student loans. It took me probably five years to pay off my student loans. And I think the cost of public education is so prohibitive now. Young people are discouraged from even considering a four-year college degree because they don't want to start out life with a degree and $20,000, $40,000 in student loans and no guarantee that that degree is gonna get them a job to even pay off their loans. You know, young people really have very tough choices to make. But Mason is still a school and it's got many accolades. It's a research school, it's world renowned, but it's still a school where more students can afford to go and get a world class education, not for world class tuition. That is the legacy.

Gregory Washington (24:52):

That's my tagline right there. I'm gonna take it. I am going to use it. That is fantastic. That's exactly what we are and who we are. And not only that, we find you, no matter where you are. We're that place of opportunity. We are that place of access. We are that place where if you want to become a success, we'll provide a pathway for you. We will work with you to figure it out. And that is probably the most attractive thing about this place. So at some point in time, something had to flip in your mind to say, I wanna do politics, right?

Catherine Read (25:28):

Well, okay, I'll tell you what that was. I reinvent myself every seven years. So I had a career.

Gregory Washington (25:32):

Is this on purpose or it just happens every seven years? It's like it happens. It’s like the itch thing?

Catherine Read (25:37):

It just happens. It’s an itch thing. So my first job out of ��ӽ紫ý was actually, I got a job as a software tester on a Navy payroll personnel project for the Navy through a government contractor. And it's 'cause I had computer experience. Computers were very new in the early eighties. And so if you had computer experience, you could get a job. It wasn't in my major, but it, it was a job that paid decent money. I worked in the data processing industry and then I decided to take a job in human resources. So I was in human resource for seven and a half years for Long and Foster local real estate company. And then I was a small business owner with my second husband. We opened a fax company back. Remember fax machines? There's some kids who couldn't even tell you what one does, but yeah, it was back with

Gregory Washington (26:20):

No you, you still see them around on desk desk and many offices around here. When they come on, people are like, well, well what is that?

Catherine Read (26:27):

But it, but back when, when fax was new in law firms and hospitals relied on fax machines. That was a going business. So Fax World was a business I co-owned. I did the bookkeeping, I ran the service techs, I did all the things in a small business. And then I ran a program called Home Service Connections for Long and Foster. And that was in the early 2000s. And then I had a business mentor who suggested to me in 2007 that these 18,000 real estate agents didn't know how to market themselves online. So think about 2005, 2006, there was no social media. It was called online marketing. Social media wasn't even a term. And so you've got 18,000 independent contractors who still use business cards and telephone to market themselves. And so he suggested to me, he goes, you should start your own business teaching professional people how to use these online tools. And so I did, in 2007, I started Creative Read and I started teaching people how to use Facebook and Twitter, which, you know, people are like. And this is political people too. This is one of the, how, one of the doorways I walked into politics and I know so many people in politics. I got Mark Keam on Twitter. He's like, Catherine,

Gregory Washington (27:39):

Mark Keam?

Catherine Read (27:39):

Mark Keam. I got him on Twitter. He's like, Catherine, it's so stupid. I'm like, mark, you have to be where the people are having a conversation. They're trying to talk to you and they're definitely talking about you. And so got Mark Keam on Twitter back when he first ran in 2009. So I started teaching people how to use social media, how to use online tools. I was doing that as my own business starting in 2007. But then that led me to nonprofits. Then all of a sudden, word of mouth, the Virginia Autism Project, how can we use social media to get autism insurance reform? Then I got Virginians for Alternatives to the Death Penalty. How can we social media to abolish the death penalty in Virginia?

Gregory Washington (28:19):

Oh, okay. I see what's happening.

Catherine Read (28:20):

So this is how I pivoted to that. So this every seven years thing is just, this is just where life led me, I guess. I see opportunity and I'm like, there's an opportunity there. And I take it.

Gregory Washington (28:31):

Ain't nothing wrong with that. So one of your goals, one of your major goals since taking office has been to expand the partnership between Fairfax and Georgia Mason University. And one thing you've done to do that, to personify that, is hosting the first ever Fairfax Pride event, which was a collaboration, which is a collaboration between your office and Mason's LGBTQ+ Resource Center. And so can you talk a little bit about what was your vision for that event? How it got started?

Catherine Read (29:03):

So Josh Kinchen invited me to the Mason Pride event, which I came to last April. And I'm coming to on March the 30th this year is, is the pride event here. And they were very generous. I mean, they introduced me not only as the first woman mayor of Fairfax City and the fact that I was a Mason alumni. Lots of applause, lots of applause. But the night of my election, we had our thank you party. I didn't call it a victory party 'cause I didn't know if I was gonna win, right? But we had it at what was then the Earp’s Ordinary Popup on the plaza in Fairfax City. It's now McKenzie's Tonics and Tunes. And I said to Josh, I'd like to have all of my volunteers and my campaign workers come for an event. And he goes, well, what time would that be?

Catherine Read (29:44):

Because we have a drag show that's gonna be Tuesday night. And I'm like, really? What time's the drag show starting? And he goes, it starts about nine. And I said, well, I'd still like to have my event. Is there any way that we can just stay for the drag show? And he goes, well, there's a cover charge. And I said, well, can I cover the cover charge? He goes, well, lemme talk to Alan. So long story short, not only am I the first woman mayor, first Mason alumni, first mayor who's never served on city council. I'm the first mayor who had a drag show at my election night party. Okay. So I think that pretty much says it all. So all this is

Gregory Washington (30:15):

You Trailblazin’.

Catherine Read (30:16):

So this was relayed at the Pride event last year at Mason. And so recognizing, and again, I I was on the, the Board of Equality Virginia for seven years too. Recognizing we have to celebrate, recognize, celebrate, uplift, support, protect every single person in our community. And that means the LGBTQ community too.

Gregory Washington (30:37):

Without question, without question. So you clearly know how to build partnerships. You've been doing it your whole career, you've done it with us. What are some ways in which students can get involved with the city, can help the city, can engage the city.

Catherine Read (30:52):

Your, your students are already there. A lot of them are already there. The women's basketball team and the men's baseball team are volunteers at our Providence Elementary School. And I think we have athletes who volunteer at Daniels Run Elementary School. There's a lot of students, Mason students who live in the city. They live in the city and not just at the Flats at University. They rent houses that are in our neighborhoods. And so they're very much a, a part of the fabric of the city. But we have park cleanups that they come to. We have all kinds of events downtown, like the Fall Festival. And I just wanna mention this too, about partnerships Fall for the Book is a super important partnership that we have with ��ӽ紫ý. Ollie, the OSHA Lifelong Learning Institute, which is in the city. Very much a partnership and, um, Spotlight on the Arts, uh, a partnership between the city and the university.

Catherine Read (31:40):

These are longstanding partnerships that bring our residents together with students, faculty, and bring visitors in from outside of the city to take advantage of these things that we produce together as a collaboration. But, uh, as far as students, we have reached out to the Climate Center, which is, we are very excited that the Virginia Climate Center is located here. You know, we have environmental issues in the city. Kate Doyle Feingold, who sits on our city council, her dissertation advisor, Kate contacted her and she's working with our police department to help us to analyze data, public safety data. Um, I've just reached out to Dean Perry of your College of Public Health.

Gregory Washington (32:21):

She's fantastic.

Catherine Read (32:22):

Well, I, because we have a homelessness task force.

Gregory Washington (32:24):

She is fantastic.

Catherine Read (32:26):

And one of the things we have not included is part of our homelessness task force is public health issues and how we address public health issues as part of what we're trying to do for people who are unhoused in the city. So I just reached out to Dean Perry to see, you know, how can we work? So there are so many opportunities for students to get involved. Using our city is basically a way to get clinical experience. Again, I'll bring up Mason's Community Mental Health Center, which is also in the city, Behavioral Health Center. You've got students getting their clinical hours right here in our city providing mental health services to our residents. And the school of business. I can't even, how could I forget? The Costello Business School is, we've got one of your faculty members that sits on the Economic Development Authority for the city of Fairfax, Patrick Soleymani. And we are glad to have him.

Gregory Washington (33:14):

He’s a good guy.

Catherine Read (33:15):

But we've got students who are working on a, a retail assessment for a parcel of land that's being redeveloped in the city. And we've got students who are working on what that could look like through the business school. We welcome partnerships like that where students get real experience and we benefit from the faculty members in the programs and the disciplines here at the university.

Gregory Washington (33:38):

So for 10 years before you became mayor, your focus was on legislative advocacy work. If you, you just highlighted mostly with nonprofits and you had some big victories, right? Uh, the Virginia Autism Project lobby for autism insurance reform that when it passed in 2011, required insurance companies to provide medically necessary behavioral therapy. They, they were not doing it before then. You also helped the Virginia Alliance for Breastfeeding successfully push for a new 2015 law that allows mothers to breastfeed their children anywhere the mother is lawfully present. So talk to us a little bit about focusing your efforts on Fairfax relative to focusing your efforts on the larger picture items.

Catherine Read (34:29):

Yeah, well, you know, there's a lot of crossover. I think one of the things we're waiting for right now is when you talk about advocacy and how state issues can impact local issues, we have to renovate our schools soon. It's been 20 years. And so we're gonna have a bond referendum on our ballot in November. But there's a 1% sales tax that both chambers passed that would allow locality, every locality to have a 1% sales tax specifically for education. Yeah. But will the governor sign it?

Gregory Washington (34:59):

Is it K-12?

Catherine Read (35:00):

It’s K-12. I know I would, I wish it was for you too. I wish it was for you too, but it's a 1% sales tax for K through 12. And, but we don't know if the governor's gonna sign it. But those are the kinds of things where it matters. And we advocate as a local government, as a municipal government. And a lot of that advocacy is done through the Virginia Municipal League too. Because getting that ability to have a 1% tax in addition to a bond referendum, to fund this major school innovation really makes a difference for us. And again, we're a Dillon Rule state, and people don't understand that too. There's a lot of things we can't do as a locality without asking permission from the General Assembly. We can't change our charter. Almost everything we do is a locality. It has to be approved by the General Assembly and then signed off on by the governor because we're a Dillon Rule state, and not every state operates that way. A lot of states have home rule, and we don't.

Gregory Washington (35:49):

I'm gonna have to look up this Dillon Rule.

Catherine Read (35:50):

Well, I tell you, I got a good education, Mason. Did I mention that?

Gregory Washington (35:53):

You got a great education at Mason.

Catherine Read (35:54):

I learned all the things.

Gregory Washington (35:55):

And we are seeing the evidence right now. Among the many roles that you've had, you've hosted this Fairfax Public Access, these shows Inside Scoop, Your Need to Know and Making Change Radio. What's the genesis for these shows?

Catherine Read (36:11):

So I fell into it as somebody else had been hosting Inside Scoop, and she had family issues. Her sister and mother were ill in upstate New York. And so I started filling in for her. And I didn't have any broadcast experience. I might've been a theater major, but no broadcast journalism experience whatsoever. And this is live television. This was a one-hour live television show. Yeah. I'm in the host seat and I'm just learning as I go. I will tell you this, I am good at learning as I go. Like I learn on the job and it's fine. So I started being in the host seat. And what I found is that people were trying to do important things, policy-wise, like decoding dyslexia, parents who were trying to get resources for their dyslexic children in the public school system. I mean, at that time, back in 2015, Fairfax County didn't even have a reading specialist in an administrative role to test kids for dyslexia.

Catherine Read (37:00):

A lot of parents felt like they were setting kids up to fail before they got help. So having a show where you could get these parents on air to talk about what the challenges were, what they were asking for, it presented it in a different way. And not only were the shows broadcast on television, but they go out on YouTube. Which means that all of these groups could send it out by email. They could embed it on their website and it would present what they were trying to do in a different way. So for me, the shows were just an extension of this nonprofit advocacy work. How do we help people understand the problems you're trying to solve with your nonprofit? And doing it in a interview format was just helpful. It's better than trying to read an assessment. It's like somebody hand you a brochure or a one pager about what they're doing. It's not the same thing as talking to somebody who has some basis of knowledge and who's really interested in what you're doing. So people would say to me, I've never been on television before. I'm so nervous. I'm like, all you have to do is look at me. We are having a conversation. And the reason these shows work is because I am interested and you are passionate.

Gregory Washington (38:05):

You talked a little bit about the new voter turnout, right? And how that new voter turnout changed the election in your case. I surmise for years of just 20% of the population showing up for these elections, there were probably some things that were undone or some opportunities missed. Really core kinds of things that we were not able to do as a community. Have you thought about what happens to a community when constituents really don't take part in elections, right? Because we had that over a period of time.

Catherine Read (38:40):

Well, this is sort of my assessment of the 20%, the 20% who tend to turn out were a demographic, older, educated White property owners.

Gregory Washington (38:51):

Okay. And I know what the outcome of that was.

Catherine Read (38:54):

Right? And so you have a government that reflects the electorate, but you also have a government then who recognizes that the constituency to whom you feel you are answerable are the 20% who come out reliably every other May. So when people look at Fairfax City, and we are a bit on the conservative side to be in such a progressive region, and our citizens tend to be progressive. I have a member on my city council right now, Jeff Greenfield, and I forget, but he served for 22 years. He took four years off, but he's been on there for 22 years on the city council. And so there was basically a lot of consistency. There was not a lot of turnover. Generally, you stayed in your seat and got reelected every time until you decided to step down or retire. And that might have led to some stability in the government, which is good.

Catherine Read (39:46):

But it also led to sort of this mindset about what the community valued. And so I was in a meeting with Fairfax County not too long ago, and somebody said, I'm a 2012 graduate of ��ӽ紫ý, and I lived on the campus. And he said, and I didn't feel like the city really welcomed us being there. And I said, well, that is not your imagination. I said, one of my good friends pointed out that until recently, there were not streetlights on the sidewalk from the downtown to the campus, right? So subtle things that make you feel not welcome.

Gregory Washington (40:25):

You know, every system is perfectly designed to get the results it gets. And so you don't want those folk in your establishments and in the downtown you develop systems to keep those kind of things from happening. You, you develop covenants so that you can only have a certain number of people in an apartment, right? That would discourage students from getting apartments together, right? You have all of these kinds of things.

Catherine Read (40:54):

I like your systems thinking. If you think about the, the fact the university is like 52 years old and the city gave land to the state for the university, but it was a commuter school. So people were like, we should have a university. A university is a good idea. Yeah. A university that would be a good idea. But then suddenly it's like, but we don't wanna be a college town. We don't wanna be Charlottesville. Like, that's not what we had in mind. So you go do your university over here, but we want Mayberry over here. And Mayberry did not have college students in it. We're at an inflection point. I'm a different kind of mayor, you know, I have a different vision. I do. And I think that the relationships between the university and the city benefit both. And it's not like we don't have a say in how that looks or how it feels. We can build parameters. I don't necessarily want a hundred tipsy college students in the middle of downtown on a Tuesday night. But honestly, we don't have that. And I don't even see that that will ever be a thing. When the Flats at University was proposed, people just, it's gonna be like a frat house. People really believed it was just gonna be noise and kids and cars, and you know something, none of that has happened.

Gregory Washington (42:07):

Right.

Catherine Read (42:08):

They brought energy feet on the street. It is great to be in the downtown with people.

Gregory Washington (42:13):

It's helping. And it's helping business

Catherine Read (42:14):

A hundred percent.

Gregory Washington (42:15):

And businesses are now coming back and that helps the tax base. Which helps the resource base, which provides more amenities. Right. It's a virtuous cycle.

Catherine Read (42:25):

It is. It is, and I love it.

Gregory Washington (42:25):

You hit the nail right on the head and we're seeing some pushback from some members about cricket. And I believe it's the same thing about our cricket baseball stadium, right? No one pushes back against the baseball side of that, but the cricket side of that, what is cricket, what does it mean? I know it's gonna bring a whole new community of people to this area and the ultimate beneficiary will be the city of Fairfax.

Catherine Read (42:54):

I agree. You know, and I think people don't understand cricket. And even though people are like, no, that's not it. That's not it. I'm like, but it is it. It's kind of like if there's nothing in it for you; you can see yourself going to a baseball game at Mason. But it's like cricket, what is it? Who plays it? I don't know anything about it. So why would I go there? And so when there was a,

Gregory Washington (43:14):

Until you actually wind up going and saying, huh, this is actually pretty cool.

Catherine Read (43:18):

Pretty interesting, right? And it's family friendly. And I think that's the other thing that the owner of the Washington Freedom, he did a good job on the town hall meeting explaining the fact that it's a family friendly game. They've modified it so it doesn't take three days to play a match anymore. , it's a T20 three-to-four-hour model. And it's early in the evening. Yeah, it's early in the evening, the afternoon. So it, it doesn't go till 11 or 12 o'clock at night like a Nationals baseball game.

Gregory Washington (43:42):

Exactly.

Catherine Read (43:43):

Again, people just don't like change and they don't like things that are unfamiliar. But to me, the Cricket Stadium is a reflection of the diversity of this university in this region. I know so many people who play cricket and when you travel the world, you run into people. When we were Warsaw, Poland, which is where our grandchildren are. There was an Uber driver who's married to a Polish national, he's from India, and he was showing us pictures on his phone of the cricket pitches in Warsaw, Poland. This is a beloved international sport and we have an opportunity and I think it's an amazing opportunity here.

Gregory Washington (44:16):

Well, you know what, I really appreciate it 'cause hearing this is energizing in terms of what we've been dealing with today with cricket. So it's really interesting. This is fantastic. You have , you have put it down, and I really, really appreciate you for it. And so we're gonna have to leave it there. Mayor Catherine Read, thank you for your time and most importantly for your leadership. I will tell you right now today that your ��ӽ紫ý degree, has never been worth more than it is today. I am Mason President Gregory Washington saying, until next time, stay safe, Mason Nation.

Narrator (45:04):

Listen to this episode

Access to Excellence Podcast Episodes

Podcast Ep 60 - Marking a decade of success at Mason Korea
August 6, 2024
Podcast Ep 59 - Cybersecurity and the global threats of tomorrow
July 5, 2024
Podcast - Ep 58: What will become of the Amazon?
April 22, 2024
Podcast - Ep 57: Catherine Read, mayor of Fairfax City, Va., is outspoken, unfiltered
March 25, 2024
Podcast - Ep 56: A view from the pulpit
February 16, 2024

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Podcast - Ep 56: A view from the pulpit

Damian Cristodero — Fri, 16 Feb 2024 19:06:45 +0000

Podcast - Ep 56: A view from the pulpit Damian Cristodero Fri, 02/16/2024 - 14:06

A view from the pulpit

Rev. Jeffery Johnson, pastor at Mount Calvary Baptist Church in Fairfax, Virginia, and Dr. Vernon Walton, pastor at First Baptist Church in Vienna, Virginia, guide us through some of the history and aspirations of the Black community using the lens of Black and African American History Month. The pastors, both of whom have ��ӽ紫ý students and alumni in their congregations, also examine with Mason President Gregory Washington the unique, but intertwined, roles the university and churches can play to confront issues such as affordable housing, food insecurity and equitable healthcare.

^{I believe wholeheartedly in scripture, where it says to whom much is given much is required. And our responsibility is not just to sit on our stools of do-nothingness and enjoy our own success, because, if that is the case, then we are guilty as well of just relishing in our own privilege. But our responsibility is to reach out to those who are marginalized, to reach out to those who have not had the benefit of the same level of access, for whatever the reasons are. And to help lift the tide.” ~}^{Dr. Vernon Walton,}^{Pastor, First Baptist Church, Vienna, Virginia}

Read the Transcript | A View from the Pulpit

Narrator (00:04):

Gregory Washington (00:27):

Mount Calvary Baptist Church in Fairfax, Virginia was established on May 15th, 1870 by former slaves who settled around the area of the Fairfax Courthouse after the Civil War. It is the first and only Black-founded church in the city. It is located less than a half mile from the ��ӽ紫ý campus. The First Baptist Church of Vienna, Virginia was established in 1867 and was also organized by former slaves. It is the first and oldest church of any kind in Vienna. It's located six miles away from the campus. I am honored to have the leaders of those congregations here with me today. They serve our students, our faculty, our staff, and they serve them incredibly well. And so on this early stage of Black History Month, I just felt fantastic that they were able to engage with us and speak with us today. Reverend Jeffery Johnson has led Mount Calvary since 2004. Dr. Vernon Walton has led First Baptist of Vienna since 2014. Both have put their stamps on their communities and have relationships with Mason that go beyond their church's proximity to our campus. Rev. Johnson. Dr. Walton, it is good to see both of you and welcome to the show.

Vernon Walton (02:01):

Thank you, Mr. President. Thank you for having us. (Jeffery Johnson) Yes, indeed.

Gregory Washington (02:05):

Well, Rev. Johnson, I know your son Jeffery has a degree from ��ӽ紫ý in graphic design, so I hope that it served him well. And Dr. Walton, you have had the Mason Chorale sing at your church and have Mason graduates on your staff. So both of you, how does the legacy of your churches, both of which are founded by former slaves, inform your work and the mission of your churches?

Jeffery Johnson (02:36):

Let me defer to Dr. Walton.

Vernon Walton (02:38):

Well, thank you. Thank you brother, brother Pastor again. Dr. Washington, thank you for having us. I'm honored to be here, talk about our work and our mission and our legacy, and certainly the celebration of Black and African American History Month. We really recognize that as a church, we stand on the shoulders of those who've gone before us. We celebrate really the strength and the capacity of those, those slaves who literally built out churches from the ground. And when I say built our churches from the ground, I'm not just specifically talking about the brick and mortar, but I'm talking about those who really worked and labored hard to build a community, to build a sense of belonging. And we recognize their intent. Years ago, 156 years ago, specifically for First Baptist, their intent in building a congregation was to inform people about their faith as well as to educate our children and community in a academic manner. And so we recognize those shoulders that we stand on and we continue that work and that mission today

Jeffery Johnson (03:42):

Yes. As well, the Mount Calvary Baptist Church, being that it was established May of 1870 by individuals, just like with First Baptist Vienna, we are known as the historical church with the biblical mandate. That biblical mandate comes from Ephesians chapter four, verse 12, that we are about the perfecting of the saints, the work of ministry, and the edifying, which is an old word that means to build up of the body of Christ. We're proud to be in this community with ��ӽ紫ý. Not only has Jeffery Junior graduated with honors from this school, he went on, uh, Dr. Washington to enroll in the Howard University Law School and is now a civil rights attorney, and he's currently working for the Veterans Administration.

Gregory Washington (04:35):

Okay. That's all right. How well do your congregations know each other? Like is there a rivalry? Is there any type of, you know, you're not that far apart and I know how churches go. What is the engagement like between the two congregations?

Vernon Walton (04:52):

Well, I wouldn't call it rivalry President Washington, but I, I would say that if you go into most of the black churches within Fairfax County, there is certainly an interconnectedness between the congregations. There are relatives throughout each of these congregations. The pastors enjoy great relationships and fellowship, and whenever possible, we attempt to collaborate together to work for the betterment of people.

Jeffery Johnson (05:18):

Yes. And many years ago, I was one of the youngest assistant pastors in Northern Virginia at the Peace Baptist Church and Peace Baptist, Mount Calvary and other congregations like Mount Olive for Centerville, had very close relationships. As a 22-year-old Baptist preacher, I used to cruise throughout Northern Virginia in a 1965 Dodge Dart convertible. And I used to worship at the old, uh, sanctuary, not only of Mount Calvary, but of First Baptist Vienna. And we are very proud of the work that Dr. Walton is doing in the city of Vienna. We are trying to do the same type of work in the city of Fairfax.

Vernon Walton (06:07):

I'll just also add President Washington, that one of the founding pastors of First Baptist is also listed as a founding pastor of at least three or four other congregations in Fairfax County. So the river runs deep.

Gregory Washington (06:23):

Outstanding. Outstanding. So, uh, Reverend Johnson, Mount Calvary, when it was founded, was known as the Colored Baptist Church. And prior to its founding, slaves attended churches of their masters. In addition, both of your communities, both Fairfax and Vienna, were segregated at one time. And I believe the last black enclave in Fairfax City on School Street really actually sat right next to Mason. And so what effect did the, the dissolution and the, the breakup of the strictly black communities have on the churches themselves. Did that impact you all significantly?

Jeffery Johnson (07:04):

It definitely affected us at the Mount Calvary Baptist Church, still driving that classic automobile throughout Northern Virginia. I used to come to School Street and I actually saw visually young black children and sometimes with their parents walking to the Mount Calvary Baptist Church. You could actually drive up and down School Street, and there was a series of houses, not all, but there was a series of houses that you could just park in front of the house or in the, the residential yard of that homeowner. And the front door was never locked. You could just walk right in. And there was a very gentle, yet powerful Christian woman by the name of Mabel Colbert, and she had quite a few children and grandchildren, and it was her personal ministry to make sure that they were involved in the various ministries and activities of the Mount Calvary Baptist Church.

Gregory Washington (08:03):

So Dr. Walton, I don't know if you've heard this quote from the actor Morgan Freeman, who recently on, uh, no, not too recently, but not too long ago, on 60 Minutes in which he says Black History Month keeps racism alive. And in that interview he says, you're going to relegate my history to a month. Black history is American history. I definitely agree with the last part of that statement. How do you, how do you react to that?

Vernon Walton (08:28):

Before I react to that, can I just go back to your last question? Just for a minute, because First Baptist, like Mount Calvary has experienced some of the same thing, but I think it's also safe to say that wherever there is a African American church in Fairfax County, you could make the assumption that there was an African American community. Clearly, as you peruse through the county today, things have changed. My question is perhaps why the disruption of these communities and what led to the disruption of these communities? You know, in some places today, we call it gentrification. But very similarly, First Baptist was very much a community church, was very much a rural community church and enjoyed its membership living and occupying space in that community. Whereas at one time, there was 80% Vienna, 20% commuting.

Vernon Walton (09:23):

We are probably just the opposite today. 80% commuting and 20% in the community within miles from the local church. And I think that's significant for us to mention because where the church existed, there was a Black community, there was Black home ownership, and there was Black economics. And so there's been a real disruption in that system. (Gregory Washington) So were there Black businesses in those communities and the like? (Vernon Walton) Absolutely. Absolutely. There were, there were plenty of Black businesses. Many, um, as I said, were farmers, and they sold their goods and their products, and they, the communities itself enjoyed a plethora of African American entrepreneurship. And today we are very hard pressed to experience the same thing. So to your point, you make about Morgan Freeman and his quote, I would agree with the latter part as well. I have not seen the exact interview, but I have heard conversation about Brother Freeman's comments. But I would just add that African American history is American history, and you cannot talk about American history without talking about the contributions that Black people have made to our nation, to our country, to our world. I personally am not sure that Black History Month keeps racism alive as much as those who seek to eliminate the contributions of Blacks and those who attempt to rewrite our history. And of course, I'm sure there's spirited conversation on this campus about those who even attempt to ban books that share our story.

Jeffery Johnson (10:57):

And Dr. Washington as well look at the fact that when you speak of, like, I, I believe one preacher spoke of 11 o'clock on Sunday morning as being the most segregated hour in America. That is one sided. We, and I'm sure Dr. Walton would agree with this, we have never rejected Whites from our membership, nor have we rejected White people from attending our services. It's only been on the other side of that scenario. Even right now, I'm part of a group called the Racial Unity Group, and we have a wonderful time fellowshipping together. And this thing based upon Morgan Freeman, uh, let me bring to your attention, he was one of the key actors in the movie called Glory. (Gregory Washington) Sure was. (Jeffery Johnson) He portrayed a character that they referred to as Sergeant John Rawlins. If you do a Google search on Sergeant John Rawlins, it will speak of the fact that the main character of the movie was real. But this was a character that was invented for that movie. The truth of the matter is, if you do another Google and you put in the name of Lewis Henry Douglass, who was the oldest son of Frederick Douglass, that sergeant from the 54th Regiment of Boston was actually Louis Henry Douglass. If you read his bio on the computer, it runs parallel with the screenplay of who they called John Rawlins. Why would they leave out such a significant fact?

Gregory Washington (12:33):

Yeah, that's interesting.

Jeffery Johnson (12:34):

But I see as Black History Month as a time that brings much pride and inspiration to the African American community. You may also remember that there was a congressional representative, I cannot think of his first name right now, but it was Congressman King from Iowa, and he actually stated that all of the major contributions to the world from Western civilization came from the White race. And that other people groups were merely observers of their contributions. And he was actually, uh, punished for making that statement. But because of our lack of knowledge of the contributions, not only of African Americans, but Asians and Hispanics and other people groups, we are really very ignorant of the contributions made by other people other than those of European descent.

Gregory Washington (13:30):

I understand that. Well, I can tell you, Black Baptists in particular played an undeniable role in the Civil Rights movement. We don't have to talk about Martin Luther King and, but the church was the rallying point for the community. And in a large sense, still very much is, uh, it provided social communication networks. It provided facilities, leadership and money, all of that. So do these roots still shape the current mission of the Baptist Church, in your opinion?

Vernon Walton (14:03):

Absolutely. We are still very much continuing in that same tradition. We are still very much continuing in the tradition of Dr. King and Vernon Johns and a host of others, even before some of the more famed individuals, we continue to work toward the liberation of not just African American people, but especially African American people, but all people, we are on the front, at the forefront of issues of justice. Churches were a big part of the movement for George Floyd right here in Fairfax County. The church galvanized around the injustice against Timothy Johnson. One of the other issues here in Fairfax County, as we talk about the shifts that have taken place within our communities, Fairfax County has a policy that is entitled One Fairfax, which is an equity policy. An equity plan. The church is at the forefront of making sure that people of color, Black people in particular, are included in this One Fairfax plan, and that it becomes a reality. So the church, from its roots has been very engaged, and the church is still engaged today.

Jeffery Johnson (15:13):

Mount Calvary actually worked with Dr. Walton with the Timothy Johnson case, and we were very proud of his leadership there. We have been very involved with City Hall here in the city of Fairfax with the previous mayor, Mayor Meyer. And we are currently working with Mayor Reed, but Mount Calvary used to have a group that would meet once a month at the Mount Calvary Baptist Church called the Fairfax County Colored Citizens Association. And very briefly, they were trying to bring forth more equity and education, home ownership, voter rights, as well as with economic opportunities.

Gregory Washington (15:57):

Oh, that's fantastic. So if I were to shift gears and say, okay, at that point in time, back in the, the 1960s, right? In the height of the Civil Rights movement, the real emphasis there was getting rid of segregation, getting rid of separate but unequal and getting our folk on a level playing field, right? And Mason was a part of that. There is a lot of that history that, from what I've read, is an integral part of this campus. What would you both say are the issues today? What are the things that are the galvanizing rallying points right now? Where are our efforts best focused?

Vernon Walton (16:36):

Can I just lift as a recent example of the work that the Black church specifically did on behalf of Black people and people of color? COVID-19 people were dying. People of color were dying at disproportionate numbers, and we literally felt as clergy persons that we needed to address this issue. And because we did not have access to shots, we did not have access to vaccines at the same rate as others. And so we really petitioned and worked hard to get equity clinics within the churches. Uh, and there were some who initially told us that this would not happen. That this was not a possibility, but we looked at the numbers, we looked at the data. We saw what a small population that we represented in this particular community, but that we were dying at a much larger and faster rate. And so we did not rest until these clinics were up and running in African American churches.

Vernon Walton (17:36):

And that's important because, and not only did it speak to the needs of African American people, but those in our Hispanic and Latina community took advantage of this because they were not trusting of some of the government sites that were up and running. And they took great delight and great comfort in coming to the churches to get the shot. So that's just one example of how we've used our voice recently and, and what some of the issues. Obviously in Fairfax County, affordable housing is a real issue. Many of our congregants, they have children who they put through college and school, and they do well, they get jobs, but they still cannot afford to purchase homes and raise their families here in Fairfax County. And so they are looking at other opportunities, and that's something that is a very pressing issue today, because we believe in the importance of education and that education should pay off, but they can't afford to live. And in some instances, they are remaining in their parents' home or they're moving away. And that impacts our churches directly when people move because of housing.

Jeffery Johnson (18:46):

Yes. We've had countless numbers of members that upon retirement, they have moved further south, either to North Carolina, Georgia, or Florida, to have much more affordable living. And we can understand that. The problem is, is that those, as Dr. Walton has spoken of, those who have matriculated through school and are making a pretty good salaries are still priced out and taxed out and placed out of the availability of housing. I myself was born in the city of Alexandria. I cannot afford to live in the city of Alexandria, which is the city of my birth. I also cannot afford to live in the city of Fairfax, which is the city where I work. And so I actually have to drive just about 20 or more miles to Mount Calvary. And even when I was at the Antioch Baptist Church, there was no housing of available near the Antioch Baptist Church, which is in Fairfax Station. So there definitely needs to be something. I'm not intimidated and I'm not jealous or envious of estate homes. And in our community, they have what they call luxury town homes. That's wonderful. That's great.

Gregory Washington (19:59):

Yeah, I saw those. They just built, they just built a new set of them right there.

Jeffery Johnson (20:03):

Yes. Yes.

Gregory Washington (20:04):

They went right on 123.

Jeffery Johnson (20:05):

We're talking about they start at around 600,000, and shot up to 900,000.

Vernon Walton (20:11):

They, they must use the same builders in Vienna .

Jeffery Johnson (20:14):

But the problem is, there should be somewhere nearby where there's a housing community, which is for the middle class or lower middle class. And, uh, I do see other housing projects that are connected with ��ӽ紫ý, and we look forward to servicing the spiritual needs of those who will be moving into those communities. But it would be nice, we may not be the heart of the city or downtown Fairfax, but there should be somewhere nearby that could accommodate our young professionals.

Gregory Washington (20:45):

Look, I hear you. You all are hit the nail right on the head with the housing piece.

Vernon Walton (20:49):

You know, President Washington, it broke my heart at least a year and a half ago, to learn that there are people just a few miles away from our churches here in Fairfax County, not in Washington DC but in Fairfax County that are living tent communities. And when I share that story with individuals, they automatically make the assumption that these individuals are living in tents by choice. But I've had the privilege to walk the tent community to share with many of these individuals. And if you go to, to these tent communities during the day, they're empty. And not because people are just hanging out on the street, but these individuals are at work, they're working individuals, many of them, but for a number of consequences and decisions and unfortunate realities, they just cannot afford to have a roof over their head without some specific assistance with affordable housing here in Fairfax County.

Jeffery Johnson (21:50):

And to add onto that, the first Tuesday of each month, I actually speak at the chapel service at the Central Union Mission in Washington DC, and there are people who work in Virginia who have to bed down at night at the Central Union Mission. They have transportation, they have a job, but there is nowhere for them currently to live.

Gregory Washington (22:15):

You know, the cost of housing is a significant issue, one which we are trying to address here ourselves. You know, the reality is, is that if you look at where ��ӽ紫ý sits, many of the people we hire, and we pay decent salaries, right? For our faculty and our staff, many of the people we hire can't afford to buy a home in this community. They have to go 15, 20, 30, 45 miles out in order to find something. And that issue is a real issue.

Vernon Walton (22:44):

And that same reality is true for brand new elementary school teachers in the Fairfax County public school systems. You know, if you're just graduating, trying to get into the system, and we've been particularly trying to recruit African American students from our local colleges and HBCUs. But again, the cost of living is cost prohibitive as well as in some instances for those going into our police departments. The first year or two is difficult on the starting salaries.

Gregory Washington (23:13):

Man, I didn't know I was gonna get this today. This is fantastic. Reverend Johnson, I know that you can recite Martin Luther King Jr's speech, I have a dream, by heart. Is that right?

Jeffery Johnson (23:25):

Yes, sir, uh.

Gregory Washington (23:26):

And I heard you do part of that. He outlined some basic tenets in that speech. But how far would both of you say we've come since that speech?

Jeffery Johnson (23:36):

I actually believe we've come a long way. The only thing is, there are some people who see the realities of some of the things that we've spoken about this afternoon, and they would actually be, uh, somewhat pessimistic. And when I run across those people, whether it's in the street or the barbershop or so forth, I say, wow, I gotta tell you the truth. I was born in 1962, and I would prefer that to 1862. There's a lot to be done, but we have also accomplished so much more than is being spoken about today. And there again, it goes back to one of our earlier topics, because there is not an adequate inclusion of African American contributions in our history, uh, in our public schools and even some of our private schools, that that's the reason why there is such a hopelessness today. But when you look at the King speech, I have to admit Dr. Washington, there are relevant issues that as much as I love that speech, I wish that it was irrelevant today.

Gregory Washington (24:43):

Oh, that's deep.

Vernon Walton (24:45):

Yeah, that's a great way to put it, rev, great way to put it. I would agree, President Washington, that we've made some tremendous strides. And let me just stop and say we should not overlook, and we should celebrate the fact that we are sitting here at ��ӽ紫ý with you, a trailblazer. And I think you are an example of some of the strides that we've made as a people, the fact that you are leading this institution as an African American male. We celebrate the ascension of President Barack Obama into the White House, and more recently, the ascension of our Vice President Kamala Harris, and we celebrate the ascension of our first African American female justice. I think those are signs, those are signals that we are heading and moving in the right direction. But we should continue to keep moving. And sometimes we pause to celebrate. And in our pausing to celebrate, we forget that there's still more ground to cover. And so, yes, there are some strides, but unfortunately there are some realities from that speech and likewise from Dr. King's letter, from the Birmingham jail, uh, that are still unrealized parts of his dream, particularly when we talk about the economics of African American people, as we just alluded to talking about the housing crisis. And I believe that it was Dr. King's real focus on economics that ultimately led to his assassination.

Gregory Washington (26:11):

I heard a couple of lines from that final speech that he was putting together. That was an economic empowerment speech If you, if you've ever heard one.

Jeffery Johnson (26:21):

Yes, sir.

Gregory Washington (26:22):

So how do we balance what has happened in the past and our hopes for the future? So, Dr. Walton, you gave a talk in which you spoke of a sermon you heard from Reverend William Augustus Jones of the Brooklyn Bethany Baptist Church, who said, and, and I'm paraphrasing here, our past isn't allowed to become the past because we keep it alive in our minds instead of letting it be bygone. We become stuck in that moment. You can't have the present because you have no clear vision for the future. Is that a personal statement or can you make a connection to what we're basically talking about in some of the struggles for equality and equity that are happening today?

Vernon Walton (27:08):

I think Dr. William Augustus Jones, who has gone on to be with the Lord now, was one of our premier voices in the pulpit, particularly the Black pulpit. But he was a world-renowned preacher and a voice and force to be reckoned with. Those words. Dr. Washington come from a sermon he preached, called The Problem of the Present Past. And in that sermon, he quoted the psalmist David, and he's, I believe it was Psalm 51. And he said, my sin is forever before me. And the point that he makes in this particular sermon is simply that there's some things that have occurred in our lives that we cannot go back and change. That sermon spoke volumes to me when I first heard it in person, when I've read it in print. And, uh, it's one that I will remember to share with you. One of the reasons why it speaks to me, because it's still relevant today in terms of my personal life, in terms of our collective witness.

Vernon Walton (28:03):

And certainly for us as people of color. What do we do? I think it's important for us to confront our past. I think it's important for us to move on from our past. But before moving on, we have to learn. Because if we don't learn anything, then we are bound to repeat the past, right? And we have to make amends for our past. We have to recognize, yes, there's some things that we cannot change. There's some things that we can apologize for, come to grips with, make restitution for, offer apologies for. So what do we do? How does it speak to us today? I think it speaks to us personally. It speaks to us as a county, as we talk about why all of these communities have shifted around these Black churches. And it also speaks to us as a country, how are we going to confront our past and make amends for our past, and then ultimately move on from our past? At the end of the day, we cannot hide. And whatever we don't confront, we are bound to repeat. And unfortunately, there are many people in our nation that don't want to have the real conversation about America and the real conversation about how African Americans were treated in America. And that, of course, goes back to this whole rewriting of history and the banning of books. But we will never be the real people that we can be until we confront some of those issues.

Jeffery Johnson (29:30):

Oh, yes. And Dr. William Augustus Jones, along with preachers like Dr. E.K. Bailey, A. Loui Patterson, and, uh, even, uh, Dr. Smith, I cannot think of his first name for some reason, it just left my mind, but he was from New York City. B.W. Smith. They used to speak in Washington DC where I pastored for 10 years. And Dr. Jones would empower his listeners with taking biblical facts and shaping them around African American experiences. He had one sermon entitled, he, he did a, he flipped the script somewhat, and he said the lion’s in Daniel’s den. So in other words,

Gregory Washington (30:15):

Instead of Daniel in the lion’s den.

Jeffery Johnson (30:17):

Right, right. And he was showing us, we are troubled on every side, yet not distressed. We are perplexed, but not in despair. Persecuted but not forsaken. Cast down, but not destroyed. And when you hear of the horrific things that have happened to our communities, it is a miracle that we are still alive and thriving with a $1.3 trillion budget in the African American community. I think this is another reason why our history is often overlooked, because there is a strong spiritual presence in our journey. And it's not politically correct to share things with spirituality when it comes to something like history. But it is the only reason I think we are still doing well and thriving. You look at Moses and the children of Israel, they had an exodus. We had an emancipation. The exodus means that they left, they came out of, we are still living in the footprint of the Civil War. We are still living near plantations. We are still living near trees where folks were lynched. We are still in Egypt even though we've been emancipated.

Gregory Washington (31:38):

Can we stay there for a second? I wanna unpack that a little bit and ask you all some questions about it. You know, the reality is that the way I see it, the shackles that hold us down today are mental, as much as they are economic, social, and physical. We have a large percentage of our community who are striving and doing extraordinary things, and they are setting the bar. Everybody knew that we would do great things in entertainment and athletics. We've done that throughout our history. But now you're seeing it in business. You're seeing it in science and engineering, you're seeing it in areas in which historically we just haven't had a modern, strong legacy, but we still have a cohort of our people who haven't gotten that memo, so to speak, and thereby are not reaching their potential. How do you speak to that?

Vernon Walton (32:42):

Dr. Washington, I think that's where the hard work is. That is the work of our church. And quite frankly, honestly, that is also the work of institutions like ��ӽ紫ý.

Gregory Washington (32:53):

Oh, I agree with that a hundred percent.

Vernon Walton (32:54):

If we are honest, there are many in Fairfax County that enjoy a great deal of privilege. And those who live here, those who work here, as it has already been suggested, you have to have reached and or, or obtained a certain level of success, and I place success in quotations that you can afford to do this. But to your point, there are others who have not received that memo. And I believe wholeheartedly in scripture where it says, to whom much is given, much is required. And our responsibility is not just to sit on our stools of do nothingness and enjoy our own success. Because if that is the case, then we are guilty as well of just relishing in our own privilege. But our responsibility is to reach out to those who are marginalized, to reach out to those who have not had the benefit of the same level of access for whatever the reasons are, and to help lift the tide. And that's the work of our church that remains, and that's the work of our institution that remains.

Jeffery Johnson (34:03):

I wholeheartedly agree. Sometimes Dr. Washington, other people groups look at the African-American community, and this happened during the time of Dr. King and they’re still doing it today. They're saying, why don't you just get over it? And the thing is, we would've been over it if it wasn't for the malfeasance of government that ended reconstruction, we would've been over it. If it wasn't for Plessy v. Ferguson or the Dred Scott decision, we would have been over it. If it wasn't for Jim Crow and the physical, or the, I guess you could say the character assassinations of Marcus Garvey and Medgar Evers and Martin Luther King Jr. and Malcolm X. We could have been over it if it wasn't for the fact of what happened in not only Tulsa, Oklahoma, but Colfax, Louisiana. And I even read recently about a insurrection that was successful in, uh, Wilmington, North Carolina back in 1898.

Jeffery Johnson (35:05):

We would've been over it if we didn't have people like Congressman King trying to tell the American society that Blacks have not contributed anything of note worthiness to the world or to the country. Because the thing about it, when you look at the reality, a civilization began in Kemet, in Egypt, in Africa. And then the Greeks came and borrowed, very politely, borrowed from what they had gained from Egypt. And then naturally, the Romans borrowed from the Greeks. We don't want to be seen as a Afrocentric superiority. We want to cooperate. There were Black explorers leaving the African continent, which actually at one time, the entire continent was called Ethiopia. And the Atlantic Ocean was referred to as the Ethiopian Sea. And you had African explorers actually coming down to the Americas. And you can see their contributions in architecture and technology.

Jeffery Johnson (36:09):

and even the exchange of the culture and so forth. So we don't want to dominate, we want to participate. And that is something that is missing today. That is something that we still would like to do. There were two elderly white ladies who looked like charming characters on the Andy Griffith Show. And when Barack Obama's second term was coming to an end, they were embarrassed because they were against his election in the first place because they thought that if there was a Black president, he would come and reap retribution against the White community. That has not been the case. Over the many years that we have been in this country, the centuries of our suffering, there are very few opportunities that our race took to have any type of retribution. And I like to tell people during Black History Month and the Martin Luther King services that I speak on, is that the African American community has had an August the 28th, but not a January the 6th.

Gregory Washington (37:19):

Hmm. Yeah. That's deep. That is really, really deep. Man, I don't even know what to say about that. You got me at a loss for words.

Vernon Walton (37:29):

Yeah. You're walking heavy.

Gregory Washington (37:32):

Yes, sir. Yes, sir. Dr. Walton, on the wall in the lobby outside of your office, you have a photo with a quote from Booker T. Washington who was born into slavery, but became the most influential African American speaker of his time and the principal developer of what is now known as Tuskegee University. And that quote says, success waits patiently for anyone who has the determination to seize it. Why that quote?

Vernon Walton (38:01):

Well, Dr. Washington, that particular quote speaks to me, but I think it's also important to note that Booker T. Washington, yes, hangs outside in the lobby of my office, but he doesn't hang there by himself. He hangs there along with a picture of Dr. King from the Birmingham Jail. He hangs there with a picture of the Little Rock Nine. He hangs there with some individuals who are participants of the 1969 March of Selma to Montgomery, and he hangs there with a picture of Rosa Parks. And so, while I love and appreciate the work of Booker T. Washington and support that quote wholeheartedly, and it speaks to me, the real intent of that quote and the others that hang in that lobby is to demonstrate to those who walk in our office and those who leave our office, is to demonstrate that we are not monolithic as a people, and that all voices matter. All voices are impactful, and that we can learn from everyone's experiences.

Gregory Washington (39:12):

Oh, that's fantastic.

Jeffery Johnson (39:13):

And Dr. Walton lives that every week. I was saddened that I was in Tampa, Florida, and could not attend his MLK service where he actually had Dr. Robert E. Lee as one of the speakers for that service. And, uh, we don't have time to talk about all of the great things that this descendant of General Lee has done to speak of a united America rather than a separated America. As well as the fact I was able to meet at First Baptist Vienna, I was able to meet the actual secretary of Dr. King, who actually composed the notes that King wrote in the Birmingham jail. So these are some very rich experiences, and we have an opportunity, as Dr. King would say, that we can either learn to live together as brothers or perish as fools. We are the greatest demonstration of the equity of democracy for a nation throughout the world, and some of the petty differences that are currently in our Congress, which I will not go into, but, uh

Vernon Walton (40:28):

Do we have enough time for that?

Jeffery Johnson (40:30):

Dr. Walton, they say, if you keep electing clowns, you are bound to have a circus. And that is what has been happening. These men are not realizing that not only are they giving a black eye to democracy, they're giving a black eye to Christianity throughout the world, because Jesus told us to love our enemies. Bless them that curse you. Pray for those who despitefully use you and persecute you. These citizens that this particular party is fighting, they're taxpayers, and whether you agree with their lifestyle or not, they work hard. They contribute to their communities and they pay their taxes. Allow the churches and the synagogues and the mosques to deal with the other issues. But you cannot relegate in legality how people should live. They have to make that decision because even God himself gave everyone a free will. And if we do our job and they do their job, we could have something close to a utopia.

Gregory Washington (41:31):

That's fantastic. So let me back up one second and let's break down where we go from here. You know, one of Mason's pillars is that education is a great equalizer. You know, and that's why we partnered with community college to create smoother pathways to four-year degree. We put in place the Mason Virginia Promise to help you either get a degree or start your own business. All of the small business development centers throughout all of Virginia are led by ��ӽ紫ý, so we can help folks start a business. So we put these foundational bricks in place. But what I want to ask you is, what else can we do? How can we help you deal with some of the problems that are still afflicting our communities?

Vernon Walton (42:21):

Well, Dr. Washington, you are creating here at Mason thought leaders. You are developing practitioners. You are creating the new economist and sociologist. And the work that you do here helps to better inform the work that we do in our local churches. The work that you do here helps us to translate the social norms and the customs. It helps us to make sense out of what is actually happening in our society. So I would dare say that these kinds of partnerships, to continue these kinds of conversations that we're having today. Many of our churches are creating feeding programs. We are creating tutoring programs. We have senior programs that are running on a regular consistent basis, but it's the thought leaders and the practitioners that you are developing here at Mason that help us to challenge the structures that create the need for these feeding programs and tutoring programs.

Vernon Walton (43:22):

And so I want to encourage you and faculty and staff here at Mason to keep developing the thought leaders, but to use our spaces and places as platforms so that the leaders that you are building have actual stages to put their work into practice. Whether they are helping us to translate the dynamics of our society, whether they are helping us to tutor the kids that are in our possession, whatever the case may be. I believe, yes, education helps greatly to equalize, but let's not forget the roadblocks that exist and that are challenging the opportunity to education, that we have, the rollbacks as it relates to affirmative actions, set asides, and, and the need for DEI. So continue to create those thought leaders, those practitioners. We are gonna continue to do our work on the ground, but your work informs what we do, and we have space for your practitioners.

Jeffery Johnson (44:22):

Oh, yes. I, I, I greatly agreed. I saw the humble beginnings of ��ӽ紫ý, and there were some people who said, well, I would go to school, but I have to support my family and work here in Northern Virginia. But then they thought of Mason, and those educational dreams and aspirations became real. It is amazing. I would ask anyone to just take a slow casual drive through this campus. It is a small city of intelligentsia. It is a oasis of academics, and you have produced so many people. Not only did my son Jeffery Jr. attend here, we have other members of the Mount Calvary Baptist Church who either took classes or actually graduated from ��ӽ紫ý. And what I like about ��ӽ紫ý is that out of all the things that Reverend Dr., uh Walton has mentioned, you also have maintained a stream of conversation that is relevant to this community. Sometimes colleges become so academically involved that they no longer have connection with the community. Your connection, Dr. Washington, with the community, is making a great impact. And when this is done, not only will you affect the graduates of ��ӽ紫ý, you will also make a great impact on the city of Fairfax, not only its citizens, but its government and its visitors.

Gregory Washington (45:59):

We got a ways to go, and we want to continue to be the institution that the community needs to be here. Not the one that it tolerates, or the one that it wants to be here, but the, that the community needs. And that means that we're gonna have to continue to provide really great outcomes for the students in and around this community, quite frankly, for the companies and the institutions, churches included, around this community. We're actually here for you also, and there's a whole host of things that we can provide you in addition to, in addition to, parishioners.

Vernon Walton (46:41):

Let, let me, let me just give you a, a shout out, Dr. Washington. I know you may not be intimately aware, but your staff was incredible. Just recently for us, a few months ago, we hosted a African American male summit for high school young men. And we had nearly a hundred young men from as far south as Richmond, from DC and all over Fairfax County. I'm a firm believer that experience and exposure goes a long way, and there's no substitute for both. As a part of that particular day, the young men had a presentation about college acceptance and preparation for college from your staff here at Mason. It for many, opened up the eyes of young men, some of which for the first time was having a conversation with someone about their future potential. And so I want to acknowledge that in this moment.

Gregory Washington (47:38):

No, I love that. I love that. And it's great that we could be a part of that. And it's fantastic that our faculty and staff can be helpful. We don't want to just stop there. We want to do more. It's part of my reason for engaging you brothers, because I wanna make sure the institution is pretty much part of the family here in Northern Virginia. So I want to thank you all for giving me, for giving us, that chance to be that, and for being a, a willing partner going forward in our futures together.

Vernon Walton (48:09):

Thank you for the offer, and we are here to receive it. And we're, and we're together. We're together.

Gregory Washington (48:14):

Outstanding, outstanding. I love it. Well, we're gonna have to leave it there, Reverend Jeffery Johnson, pastor at Mount Calvary Baptist Church in Fairfax, Virginia, and Dr. Vernon Walton, pastor at First Baptist Church in Vienna. Thank you both for your time and for a really fantastic conversation.

Vernon Walton (48:39):

Thank you, Dr. Washington.

Gregory Washington (48:41):

I'm Mason, president Gregory Washington saying, until next time, stay safe, Mason Nation.

Narrator (48:49):

Listen to this episode

Access to Excellence Podcast Episodes

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July 5, 2024
Podcast - Ep 58: What will become of the Amazon?
April 22, 2024
Podcast - Ep 57: Catherine Read, mayor of Fairfax City, Va., is outspoken, unfiltered
March 25, 2024
Podcast - Ep 56: A view from the pulpit
February 16, 2024

In This Story

diversity equity and inclusion DEI

Topics

Black History Month

Black Lives Next Door

Enslaved People

Podcast - Ep 55: Where the bodies are buried

Damian Cristodero — Thu, 11 Jan 2024 14:53:56 +0000

Podcast - Ep 55: Where the bodies are buried Damian Cristodero Thu, 01/11/2024 - 09:53

Where the bodies are buried

Forensic research on human donors is not for the faint of heart, Mary Ellen O’Toole, director of the Forensic Science Program in ��ӽ紫ý’s College of Science, admitted to Mason President Gregory Washington. But the university’s new outdoor research and training laboratory—or “body farm,” as O’Toole, a former FBI profiler, calls it—is a valuable addition to the study of human decomposition in various environmental conditions for the purpose of solving crimes. It also positions O’Toole’s program as a national leader in forensic science and forensic anthropology.

^{And I love the term audacity because being audacious is to stand up and say, ‘We've got thousands of unidentified remains in medical examiner's offices throughout the United States. What can we do to reunite those individuals with their family members?’ We know that we've got unsolved cases out there of marginalized victims throughout the United States. Audacious means what can we do to solve those crimes? And so if my students can be as audacious as is humanly possible, they're gonna be magnificent forensic scientists.”}

Access to Excellence Podcast Episodes

Podcast Ep 60 - Marking a decade of success at Mason Korea
August 6, 2024
Podcast Ep 59 - Cybersecurity and the global threats of tomorrow
July 5, 2024
Podcast - Ep 58: What will become of the Amazon?
April 22, 2024
Podcast - Ep 57: Catherine Read, mayor of Fairfax City, Va., is outspoken, unfiltered
March 25, 2024
Podcast - Ep 56: A view from the pulpit
February 16, 2024

In This Story

Topics

Forensic Science Research and Training Laboratory

College of Science

Forensic Science Program

Podcast - Ep 54: Are we headed for an internet apocalypse?

Damian Cristodero — Fri, 01 Dec 2023 14:40:03 +0000

Podcast - Ep 54: Are we headed for an internet apocalypse? Damian Cristodero Fri, 12/01/2023 - 09:40

Peter Becker, a professor in the Department of Physics and Astronomy in ��ӽ紫ý’s College of Science, talks with Mason President Gregory Washington about how a predicted major increase in solar storm activity could be a prelude to an “internet apocalypse.”

Can we prepare? What could be the consequences? What are the economic implications? A $14 million federal study Becker is leading with the Navy could provide better predictive capabilities and help us better understand exactly what’s at stake.

Professor Peter Becker joins Mason president Gregory Washington in the studio to discuss how an increase in solar storms could be a prelude to an “internet apocalypse” on this episode of the Acess to Excellence podcast.

Photo credit:

Cristian Torres/��ӽ紫ý

^{A very large event could take the internet out for as long as a month, and there’s additional damage to the power grid, too. So if you lose the internet, the economic damage in the U.S. alone is considered to be on the order of about $10 billion per day. And so if that escalates, you pretty rapidly run into an economic disruption that’s larger than COVID, let’s say, as an example."}

Learn more about the Access to Excellence Podcast

Access to Excellence Podcast Episodes

Podcast Ep 60 - Marking a decade of success at Mason Korea
August 6, 2024
Podcast Ep 59 - Cybersecurity and the global threats of tomorrow
July 5, 2024
Podcast - Ep 58: What will become of the Amazon?
April 22, 2024
Podcast - Ep 57: Catherine Read, mayor of Fairfax City, Va., is outspoken, unfiltered
March 25, 2024
Podcast - Ep 56: A view from the pulpit
February 16, 2024

In This Story

Topics

Department of Astronomy and Physics; College of Science; AU Mic b

U.S. Department of the Navy

Podcast - Ep 53: The critical importance of shared humanity

Damian Cristodero — Fri, 10 Nov 2023 17:44:10 +0000

Podcast - Ep 53: The critical importance of shared humanity Damian Cristodero Fri, 11/10/2023 - 12:44

Content Warning

This story contains references to themes of suicide which some individuals may find distressing.

Dean Melissa Perry joins Mason president Gregory Washington in the studio to discuss to 'epidemic of loneliness' and the importance of a shared humanity.

Photo credit:

Cristian Torres/��ӽ紫ý

Melissa Perry, dean of ��ӽ紫ý’s College of Public Health, is an ardent proponent of virtual reality and AI as tools to help solve the nation’s health challenges. But, as she tells Mason President Gregory Washington, a technology overload has also helped create an “epidemic of loneliness” that has heightened the importance of a shared humanity and “being present for each other.” Perry also discusses her suicide attempt as a teenager which ultimately inspired her career in public health.

^{Getting back to my point about ensuring we remain focused on access and equity, making sure we don’t create digital divides by whatever strategies we’re using AI for. We want to make sure our advancements and our improvements will benefit population health, not just privileged populations that are inclined to navigate sophisticated systems. We want to make it as accessible and level the playing field for everyone."}

Read the Transcript

Narrator (00:04):

Trailblazers in research, innovators in technology, and those who simply have a good story all make up the fabric that is ��ӽ紫ý, where taking on the grand challenges that face our students graduates and higher education is our mission and our passion hosted by Mason President Gregory Washington. This is the Access to Excellence podcast. This podcast includes a discussion about suicide. If you or someone you know is experiencing suicidal thoughts or a crisis, please reach out immediately to the Suicide and Crisis Lifeline by calling or texting 988. You can also contact the crisis text line at 741-741. These services are free and confidential.

Gregory Washington:
Melissa Perry grew up in rural Vermont about six miles from the Canadian border. As she prepared to attend the University of Vermont in Burlington, she fretted about driving in the city because as she said, it would be too scary and too complicated. But there is nothing timid about what Dr. Perry, the Dean of ��ӽ紫ý's College of Public Health, the first college of public health in Virginia, has accomplished in her career. Dr. Perry is the immediate past co-chair of the National Academies of Sciences Engineering and Medicine Committee on Emerging Science. And she is an ardent proponent of virtual reality as a tool to help solve what she calls Virginia's triple health crisis: A dramatic rise in opioid overdoses, the growing demand for mental health services, and the declining supply of qualified healthcare practitioners. She also has a famous relative singer, Katie Perry, which we'll talk about. Dr. Perry, welcome to the show,

Melissa Perry (02:00):

Dr. Washington. I couldn't be more excited to be here. Thanks so much.

Gregory Washington (02:03):

Let's just get things started here. I'm curious what it was like for you, coming from a small town in Highgate, Vermont. Is it true that you were one of only two students in your graduating class to go on to college?

Melissa Perry (02:17):

It is true, in fact. So I went to Missisquoi Valley Union High School, so it was a union school that had several different feeder towns, and I was coming from Highgate, Vermont, and the students from my town, there was a handful of about 30 or so students, and only two of us ended up going to college. So of our 400-student graduating class two from Highgate, Vermont went to college.

Gregory Washington (02:44):

So what did the other students do?

Melissa Perry (02:46):

Well, in Highgate, it's a really small town, as you mentioned, just six miles south of the Canadian border. Not a lot of industry, not a lot of opportunity to be upwardly mobile, economically mobile. So folks would sometimes farm. They sometimes would work in local stores or gas stations. Sometimes they would go into logging, oftentimes into construction. But they oftentimes stayed close to home and really didn't venture far out of our town of Highgate in our county of Franklin County, Vermont.

Gregory Washington (03:19):

So you go to the University of Vermont. How did your time there change your worldview and maybe even guide your career choices? How did that happen?

Melissa Perry (03:27):

Going to university had a huge impact on me. During high school, I had a really troubled time, and it was quite unlikely that I would go to college. A lot of folks didn't believe that I was gonna be able to make it. And when I finally arrived at the University of Vermont, if you can imagine this, it was the first time that I ever had health insurance. So prior to that, growing up in Vermont, our health insurance policy was essentially don't get sick, um, . So I arrive on campus and it was very overwhelming because being from a tiny town, I hadn't had a lot of metropolitan experiences. I hadn't really ventured far out of my town, whereas Burlington, Vermont, really felt like a metropolis. And there were so many students coming from other states who had a lot more resources and a lot more travel, and a lot of exposure to a lot of parts of the world that I'd never seen myself. And in fact, there was a disparaging term for people coming directly from Vermont. They were referred to as woodchucks. And so I was seen as a woodchuck my first year in college. Ultimately, I was able to overcome that feeling of inhibition and embarrassment, but really showing up for the first time in Burlington, Vermont on that campus was, in the beginning very intimidating and very overwhelming, but ultimately it became, education became so affirming for me. I understood once that door opened, I just wanted to keep going.

Gregory Washington (04:56):

That is the liberating power of education, isn't it?

Melissa Perry (04:59):

Absolutely. Absolutely. That's my story.

Gregory Washington (05:02):

So tell me a little bit about your relationship to Katy Perry.

Melissa Perry (05:06):

So Katy Perry, my father left our family when I was really young. I was like two years old when he first left. And he was essentially estranged from our family. It was my brother and mother and me, and I didn't have a lot of connections with him over the years. Later on, I came to learn that he had a half-sister, so his father remarried and had a daughter, and that daughter was Christine. And Christine is Katie's mom. So in fact, Katie and I share the same paternal grandfather, and that makes us first half-cousins.

Gregory Washington (05:42):

First half cousins.

Melissa Perry (05:44):

That’s right, that's right.

Gregory Washington (05:45):

You know where I'm from. We just say, first cousin ,

Melissa Perry (05:50):

We share the same grandfather.

Gregory Washington (05:53):

No, understood. Understood. So let's talk a little bit about you being dean of the first College of Public Health in Virginia. You worked at public health colleges before, and I think when we got connected to you, you were at GW. But I know you've spent some time at John Hopkins, at Harvard, and at GW. Talk to us a little bit about why is the distinction of being a college of public health so important.

Melissa Perry (06:18):

Absolutely. Yes. I think altogether, I've been at schools and colleges of public health for almost 35 years. And in fact, right now there are over 30,000 students in the country that are getting degrees in schools, colleges, and programs of public health. They are studying at the undergraduate level, at the master's level, and at the doctoral level. They are studying epidemiology, they're studying health services, they're studying social determinants of health. They're studying environmental health, and infectious diseases. And here at our college, we also have components of public health that include nursing and also social work. So suffice it to say a college or school of public health makes sure that we have the opportunity to train in very focused ways to prepare a whole myriad of public health experts that can respond to the pressing needs of our country.

Gregory Washington (07:17):

So what is your vision for the college? Where do you want to take it and what kind of impact can it have?

Melissa Perry (07:22):

There is no doubt in my mind that this college can have a tremendous impact. Being the first college in the Commonwealth has been an ultimate honor, privilege, and important opportunity that we are pushing forward to be a leader in providing training, structured training and opportunities for folks in the Commonwealth and beyond that want to sign up for being part of a public health change in our region, in our state, in our nation, and in our world. I'm really excited about being able to convene leaders' expertise and also push forward and generate new knowledge in areas of research. I'm also super excited about how inclusive excellence across this university resonates so powerfully with our College of Public Health. The vast majority of our students, of our faculty, of our staff, they really care in making sure that we ensure health is a human right. And we ensure that everyone has access to health and well-being regardless of where you are in society, regardless of what zip code you live in. And I strongly believe that our College of Public Health is doing this and will continue to push forward with those values and with that mission.

Gregory Washington (08:39):

I love it. Healthcare is a right, and everybody deserves access. You know, that's so important in this day and time. You know, I don't have time to go through all of the programs in the college, but one

Gregory Washington (08:51):

that

Gregory Washington (08:52):

personifies exactly what you've just highlighted there is our Mason and Partners, our MAP clinics, and they provide healthcare to really vulnerable populations in the community. So talk to me about how that program fits into the broader college goals that you have.

Melissa Perry (09:11):

Yes. I have to share the story with you, Dr. Washington. When I was interviewing for this position, and I first learned about Mason and Partner clinics, I almost didn't believe it. What I came to understand was something that hearkened back to a period in my training in the early ‘90s where there was an active interest in people going into health, going into medicine, going into public health, going into nursing, really invested in responding to underserved communities, marginalized communities, and making sure that everyone had access to healthcare. And so, so many of those clinics have somehow disappeared, whereas ��ӽ紫ý has made sure that the Mason and Partner clinics are alive and well, thanks to a lot of hard work on the part of our incredible nurse leaders and our nurse, nursing students, and making sure that everyone, those folks that are the most invisible, the most marginalized, the most hard to reach, are getting access in Fairfax and also in Prince William County. We're super proud of the MAP clinics, and we wanna continue to advance and also ensure that they're as well integrated across the college as possible and also presenting great opportunities for our students across the university.

Gregory Washington (10:27):

It is a fantastic program, and it really does personify the campus. So what other research programs are at the College of Public Health that have you excited?

Melissa Perry (10:39):

We are having a great time in advancing our council on education and Public Health accreditation. This is a big deal for us. Launching this college has meant the support from Mason, the support of the commonwealth, the support of the community. And so now we're hard at work putting together our self-study so that the entire college will be accredited. We're really enjoying the opportunity to integrate nursing. We're very proud of our school of nursing, ensuring that nurses are learning from public health leaders and epidemiologists and health service experts are also learning from nursing. And then also social work. What a point of pride to have a department of social work within a College of public health. And we hear that from students and from faculty saying, this is unique, this is truly interdisciplinary, and this is exactly what we're looking for innovation in health services, provision of healthcare, and also in the prevention of disease.

Gregory Washington (11:36):

Outstanding. Outstanding. So let's talk a little bit about your personal connection to public health. How did you get into the field?

Melissa Perry (11:46):

I really appreciate the question, Dr. Washington. And actually, this goes way back, it goes way back to when I was, was young and growing up in rural Vermont. And in fact, that tiny town had very few, as I mentioned, economic opportunities. There was a lot of strife, a lot of mental and emotional strife. There was unemployment. There were many a single-parent families. There was quite a bit of alcohol abuse, tons of tobacco use, and other drugs. And at a point when I was quite young, right around 14, it was a very lonely time in my life. I was a lonely adolescent. My mom was working night and day at this, actually, it was a local watering hole. It was essentially a snack bar, but it was really a bar. That's how we're able to make some money by selling, uh, beer and wine. And she was working night and day.

Melissa Perry (12:40):

So I didn't have a supportive family or community of friends. I really didn't have anyone. And I reached a point of despair and I was at home alone and felt as though nothing would change, really had hit rock bottom in sadness and loneliness and despair. And so I found a bunch of pills. I didn't know what they were. I just knew at that moment that I didn't wanna continue. I didn't wanna continue living with this kind of pain. And so I took a bunch of pills. I didn't know what they were at the time. I just swallowed, um, I don't know, 50 or so pills. And I guess through tremendous grace, my brother found me. He came home and he found me. He called the ambulance. And the next thing I remember, I woke up in the intensive care unit in Burlington, Vermont. I had tubes everywhere, had no idea how they got there.

Melissa Perry (13:36):

And woke up to realize that three days had passed and I had been in a coma. I was absolutely terrified by what I had just done. I couldn't believe it. It was unfathomable what I had just attempted. At that moment I knew I didn't wanna die. I knew I wanted to live. And it was through the support of a lot of folks, the friends that I didn't know I had, I didn't feel like I had, teachers, mental health workers, guidance counselors. All of these people reached out to me and said to me, you really matter. We don't want to lose you. And I would say, looking back, that that was a transformative moment. That was the moment when I decided I really wanted to make a difference in the world. I wanted to address mental health crises. I wanted to address pain and suffering, and I wanted to get busy living.

Melissa Perry (14:28):

And I just wanted to tell you, Dr. Washington, that, um, this is the first time that I've actually shared this story publicly. And I did it for two reasons. One is that I really respect you and I really trust you, and I know how you and all of our people at ��ӽ紫ý really care about mental health, mental health crises, and people who may be experiencing suicidality or suicidal ideation. So I knew this was a safe place to talk about it. And then secondly, I hope that by sharing this message, if even one person hears this and feels as though this resonates with you, you have to know that there is another side. That it's common to believe that there's not. But you can get through whatever you're dealing with and push through. And there is support to get you through. And I guess my story is, is an example of that.

Gregory Washington (15:26):

Well, first and foremost, I, I'm humbled. I wanna say thank you for sharing. You never know what people are dealing with and what individuals who might be listening to this podcast are dealing with. So I am grateful for you sharing your story, that the story could have an impact on someone else. The reality is you have achieved tremendous heights since that time. You know, and look at where you are today. That's really kind of a message. It's a message of triumph, but it's also a message for people who may be in a point of despair right now. These things can turn around. You can end up at a great point in life. And also, I would say to those of you out here listening, if you or someone you know is experiencing suicidal thoughts or crisis, please reach out immediately to our suicide and crisis lifeline by calling or texting 988. You can also contact the crisis text line at 741-741. These services are all free and confidential. So with that as a backdrop of what you just highlighted to us, what were your thoughts when you read the report by the Centers for Disease Control that said, nearly 57% of teen girls in the US felt persistently sad or hopeless, double that of boys, and 30% of teen girls seriously considered suicide.

Melissa Perry (16:56):

It was incredibly distressing. My first reaction was distressed. The second reaction was, I identify, the third reaction was, I really need to talk about my own experience as a way of reaching out, as a way of affirming what it's like to be in that space as a, as adolescent girl feeling hopeless. I'm really concerned as an epidemiologist and as a public health leader, that we have seen such a tremendous increase in the sense of loneliness and despair and hopelessness. I feel strongly that despite the many, many advances that we've experienced with technology, we're also experiencing a epidemic of loneliness. Mm. In a very paradoxical way. I anchor back to just about 16 years ago, 2007, when the smartphone arrived. And before you know it, we all had this small glass rectangle in our hands. And by its very nature, we start to tune others out.

Melissa Perry (17:59):

There's an important quote that I've used before, and that is behind any type of machine, whether or not it's a gun, a car, or a computer, we are at risk of losing a piece of our humanity. And so as we find ourselves communing at the screen, I think we're disconnecting inadvertently, unconsciously, unintentionally from each other. And so to have such a massive number of teen girls throughout the US experiencing, uh, loneliness and despair tells me that it's critically important to rally support, to turn toward each other, to continuously recognize how much our teens need us as adults, as community members, as friends, as leaders, as parents, as teachers, as educators, and really recognize the critical importance of shared humanity and being present for each other.

Gregory Washington (18:55):

Look, you, you , I don't know if you meant for this to be a class, but you're indeed teaching today. You know, a year or so ago, we did a podcast with Robyn Mehlenbeck, and I don't know if you know, uh, Robyn.

Melissa Perry (19:08):

Yes. I've interacted with Robin for sure. I really admire her leadership at the university.

Gregory Washington1 (19:12):

Yeah. So she heads our Center for Psychological Services and one of the things she said, it stuck with me, and it was, she said, A mental health crisis on the heels of Covid would actually be the country's second pandemic. What do you think about that? And is this all tied together?

Melissa Perry (19:31):

I think that's a very powerful, very insightful statement I wanted to share with you. I thought you’d enjoy hearing that yesterday, I was over in Arlington at the Carter School and we had this great symposium on the many contributions that Jimmy and Rosalynn Carter have made to the world. And so I convened a fireside chat with a colleague of mine, Eliot Sorel, who's a very well-known public mental health, global health psychiatrist. And we talked about the way in which the Carters were grappling with mental health issues in the 1980s. What were the issues then? It was partly ensuring that people were coming out of mental hospitals. It was destigmatizing mental health issues. It was funding research so we could better understand how common these issues were. So we had a very robust conversation. So that's the 1980s. And I mentioned it to say that as a country we've grappled, we grappled with mental health issues. I find that now in the two thousands, 2020s, we are being more open about these conversations. We're also seeing that, for example, pre-COVID, the probability that someone in the US would be experiencing some mental health crisis in their lifetime was around 25%. And that as we are coming out of Covid, the probability that someone 70 or younger might experience some type of mental health crisis has increased to one in two or 50%.

Gregory Washington (21:07):

Whoa.

Melissa Perry (21:08):

So these are very, very real issues. I felt strongly that the extreme isolation that so many millions of people went through during Covid certainly exacerbated mental health issues. The continuous bad news that we all had to consume on a daily basis also exacerbated mental health distress. And I honestly believe, and in some ways the Carter's reinforce this in their notion of community matters. The connections that we have in our lives and how we cultivate them and the way that we seek them out has a tremendous impact on navigating the hardships and the battles that each of us has to navigate on a daily basis.

Gregory Washington (21:50):

I guess kind of all of this seems like it's kind of converging here, right? If you have, the Virginia Department of Health reported that from 2019 to 2020, Virginia saw a 17% increase in overdose deaths. Then in 2021, 37% of adults in Virginia reported symptoms of anxiety or depression. And yet we have 22% of the folk in our population who are unable to get counseling or therapy. When you start to pull all of this together, is this the triple health crisis in Virginia that you were speaking of?

Melissa Perry (22:23):

I think that is very, uh, much how it's manifesting. I think these are very, very, uh, real and pressing and alarming problems. And at the same time, I believe that we can develop solutions. We are developing solutions. I think the awareness, public awareness is absolutely essential. I think unpacking what we're looking at in terms of the healthcare crisis and having enough providers, it partly stems from pushing systems beyond their capacity. And that includes all of the healthcare workers who were pushed far beyond what they could actually handle during Covid. And recognizing that we have to, in many ways make sense and harmonize how we deliver healthcare, how we access populations, and how we support our healthcare providers, our nurses and other health workers, so that they can have a semblance of calm and sanity and harmony in the work that they do and they're so passionate about. Healthcare workers are talking about not as much pay as they're talking about shortages that really compromise their ability to deliver quality care.

Melissa Perry (23:36):

They care about their patients and they can't deliver it. When it comes to the opioid crisis, goodness gracious, who could imagine how lethal our current class of opioids has become? Who could imagine that? We've been contending with drugs as a country for decades now, but we are in a place where these drugs that are currently being used, fentanyl and other drugs are so lethal that it really takes one use to end a life. So I believe a public health approach, a public mental health approach, a population approach to the provision of health, health as a human right, and also health provision as a common good that we all must invest in and believe in and be connected to, is really the answer to this multiple epidemics or what's been referred to as a syndemic of various health crises in the country.

Gregory Washington (24:29):

So why are we stuck in a deficit of this availability of care? It goes well beyond having an adequate number of staff people to deal with it. Why are we stuck?

Melissa Perry (24:40):

Again, I like to anchor back to the early ‘90s when we had very, uh, vigorous conversations as a society and certainly among public health leaders about this notion that healthcare should not be treated as a commodity. It shouldn't be only left to the market to see how it lands. In fact, we have to covet the provision of healthcare to ensure that everyone gets access to quality care rather than just those that can afford it, or just those that can navigate an extremely complicated system. Let's face it, we all recognize that it's getting more and more complicated. I think recent data I've read is that at least 27 million Americans are carrying some type of health-related debt. How did we get there? How did we use healthcare and convert it into a commodity? And with a business mindset when in fact, as a society, we recognize it's critically important that everyone remain healthy and get access to the care that they so deserve.

Gregory Washington (25:45):

So you're a big proponent of virtual reality as a healthcare tool. And in order to tackle a problem like this, we need scale, right? More people need to get access to services and care. So how can VR help in these types of situations?

Melissa Perry (26:02):

Uh, that's a great topic, and you're absolutely right. I think about things in terms of populations. Thousands of people, hundreds of thousands of people. That's how I envision how a disease might travel through a population. That tells you so much about the disease, about who's being affected and also what's causing that disease, and what are the factors that are hastening the transmission or the conditions of the disease. To be honest, I like to say that I'm a bit of a digital migrant, and that is that I essentially trained without a lot of technology. I think I typed my, certainly my undergraduate papers on an electric typewriter. So I've never been an early adopter of technology, but when I came to Mason and put on a virtual reality headset for the first time, it was a huge aha moment. It was, okay. So I think cynically, when I heard about VR, I thought, so we're retreating into the virtual world, uh, because we can't solve problems in the real world?

Melissa Perry (27:03):

I think that was my misguided notion. But once I experienced VR, I realized, oh, this is such a powerful way to immerse our students in real-world situations. So sure, you can do role-playing in the classroom, but how about having immersive situations where you really feel like you're there either treating a patient or how about dealing with a person who might be in a mental health crisis? You don't want to be exposed to that for the first time when you're in the middle of it. You really want to, um, have preparation. You wanna have a simulation. So I'm super excited by the many skills and the many creative exposures we can give our students to best prepare them to go out into the world and know how are they going to treat their first patient, or how are they going to navigate, let's say, the new unknown epidemic or a new chemical exposure? We can write scenarios. We can write cases that will have students work through all of those issues and be well-prepared when they graduate.

Gregory Washington (28:10):

That's interesting. 'cause you, you and I aren't too far apart in age. And I remember back when I worked on my dissertation, it was on an Apple, a Macintosh machine. So you were, uh, somewhat of a slow adopter early.

Melissa Perry (28:26):

I was, I was. So just for a correction. So I was doing my undergrad papers on the typewriter I remember at UVM, but for my master's and doctoral work, it was this Gateway computer that came in a Holstein cow-type black and white box. And that I had to assemble. And then it had a MsDos prompt, so I remember that as well.

Gregory Washington (28:49):

Understood. So can't talk these days about the future without talking about artificial intelligence. It's interesting. We're not discussing enough how it can be linked to public health, right? We hear a lot about it with physical health, and we actually hear now about mental health. So where do you see the intersection with AI in public health?

Melissa Perry (29:15):

I think my years of being, not necessarily, I'd say a late adopter, not a laggard or a Luddite, but maybe a late adopter. I think I'm over that because I've recognized that it hasn't, uh, suited me well. So I would put myself in an early adopter space. When it comes to AI, I feel a lot of optimism. I feel worry for sure. I share the many worries that so many folks have put forward. And perhaps we're in what you could call a hype cycle where we're overreacting to what AI has to offer. With that said, similar to virtual reality, these machine learning technologies can push us further. And we've seen head-spinning demonstrations of how AI can come up with the detection of disease, can come up with new diagnoses that currently weren't understood. So I think we need to poke and prod as judiciously and responsibly as possible, and at the same time, not be fearful. We have to recognize that whatever we may be teaching in public health right now may quickly become outmoded. But that means that embracing these technologies and really preparing our students for the next generation where they can harness it, where they can have these powerful curated tools to support them, to envision. I think there are different minds for the future. And I think the humanitarian mind, the ethical mind, the synthesizing mind, the moral mind, those are areas of teaching and educating that we can continue to do. And no machine system is going to change that.

Gregory Washington (30:54):

Right, to a certain extent. But what I will tell you, I believe that AI affords an opportunity. You're looking at data and you're looking at large amounts of data relative to measurements or outcomes relative to public health for communities, right? And AI has the ability to see patterns and data that we may not catch early enough. And so I think that there may be something there in that regard. I think there may be some benefits there that will help in the public health space.

Melissa Perry (31:28):

I completely agree. I think you're absolutely right. The ability to process massive amounts of data and to be able to see patterns and signals amidst reams of data that it's not humanly possible to process. I think that will really catapult us forward. And again, we're seeing that even in the diagnostic space, right?

Gregory Washington (31:48):

I think epidemiologists are gonna be using these tools probably akin to how they use a basic computer today. I honestly believe the tools are gonna be that helpful.

Melissa Perry (31:58):

I agree with you. I don't think that's farfetched at all. And I do have a posture of receptivity and excitement about the future and really wanna make sure that we are as proactive as possible in understanding how best to harness this and how to teach these opportunities of AI usage for our students so they can be really in the driver's seat and they can come up with new applications, which I think are proliferating all the time. So the ability to power through massive amounts of data to detect, again, new risk factors, new signals, and new causes of disease, I remain very optimistic about.

Gregory Washington (32:36):

Well, then you kind of answered my next question for me, because this whole Center of Disease Control report that came out in March basically states that AI is poised to transform the practice of medicine and the delivery of healthcare. I would assume that you would wholeheartedly agree with that.

Melissa Perry (32:53):

I agree with that, and I think that's the kind of open-mindedness that we need to be approaching, the power of AI. And at the same time, understand, getting back to my point about ensuring that we remain very focused on access and equity, making sure that we don't create further digital divides by whatever strategies we're using AI for. We wanna make sure that our advancements and our improvements are going to benefit population health, not just privileged populations or those that are inclined to navigate sophisticated systems. We really wanna make it as accessible and parsimonious and level the playing field for everyone in our society.

Gregory Washington (33:38):

So prior to coming to Mason, you completed a one-year sabbatical in Albania as part of the Fulbright International Education Program for Global Scholars. One thing you found in your interactions with people in that population is that one of the usual greetings between people is, are you tired?

Melissa Perry (33:58):

Yes, that's exactly right.

Gregory Washington (33:59):

What did that tell you about the state of public health, not necessarily in Albania, everywhere as we deal with the physical and mental stress of the pandemic and its aftermath relative to these other factors we discussed?

Melissa Perry (34:13):

I think it was very poignant. Yes. I really had an insight to that when I was in Albania. It's true in the Albanian language, one of the greetings, the first greeting is how are you? To which everyone always responds fine. And then the next is, are you tired? To which people usually say yes, I'm kind of tired. And so it has been a true reflection of the population burden of the stress and strain of what we've been through. At the same time, again, I have to harken back to 2007. I, on a personal basis, feel as though the cognitive complexity and the digital overload that I find myself immersed in and living every day. I think that also can be beleaguering. I think it can be somewhat isolating and overwhelming that our poor brains are trying to keep up with machines, even simply our smartphones as though we can process information like we’re machines, when in fact we're not.

Melissa Perry (35:12):

So there's a fatigue factor there. And as I said at the moment, in March of 2020, when so many universities sent everybody home, I just thought, again, being in that isolated place at home, for those that had the privilege of being at home, because there were hundreds of thousands of essential workers that didn't, they were having to show up for work on the front lines every day. But for those people who were at home, only able to get information from their computer, didn't have the ability to be in their natural settings. And that's among other people, I think our brains are wired to need that. And then consuming constant bad news, that was a very beleaguering and exhausting time. And I think we're still working hard to come out of it to return to a sense of normalcy. In reality, I don't think we'll ever be the same as we were pre-COVID because we learned profound lessons about pathogens, infectious diseases, and the ability for new pathogens to change and to mutate to create the next pandemic. So it's not a matter of will there be another pandemic. Unfortunately, the answer is yes, it's a matter of when.

Melissa Perry (36:33):

But there's so much that we as a society can learn. I say that these have to be lessons learned, not just lessons observed as to what happened. Why did we find ourselves so unprepared, and what can we do going forward? For me, as a dean of a college of public health, it is training the next generation.

Gregory Washington (36:53):

I agree a hundred percent. You know, The Washington Post reported that since 20, 20, 30 states have passed laws that limit public health authorities. Given what we were talking about, given what we know, , since the pandemic hit, what do you see as the consequence of such an action? Why would they do this, by the way?

Melissa Perry (37:17):

Oh boy. Yes, absolutely. You've raised a really serious topic, a really important topic, and an opportunity to learn a ton. Again, lessons to learn rather than to just observe. So in the early days of the pandemic, fellow colleagues from the American Public Health Association published this really eye-opening report where they demonstrated that over the past 25 years, we as a country had lost 250,000 public health jobs. It was a staggering number. It was as though, as I mentioned, training in epidemiology and public health at Johns Hopkins in the early ‘90s. I felt surrounded by cadres of public health leaders. Many were going into the epidemiologic intelligence service. They were being trained to be on the front lines during crises, such as the Covid-19 pandemic. And when it hit in 2020, we were woefully unprepared. We didn't have those workers. We hadn't invested in the public health infrastructure.

Melissa Perry (38:19):

We had uninvested. And also data. Data is an epidemiologist's bread and butter, just as we were talking about with AI. You need good data, timely data, accurate data, and thorough data in order to understand what's going on. And what we found during the pandemic is that we didn't have it. We didn't have the systems, and a lot of conflicting forces were trying to shield the data or hold onto it and not release it. So what you're just talking about these laws about data usage is part of it. It's the last direction we wanna go in. In fact, I would say data needs to be a public possession. It needs to be made in the public domain to better inform how we prevent disease, how we treat, how we respond, how do we mitigate for all the members of our society. So the last thing we should be doing is disinvesting in public health. COVID did make words like pandemic, epidemiology, and concepts such as infectious disease or disease rate or transmission. Those became household words.

Gregory Washington (39:22):

Exactly. That's one of the silver linings in this whole thing.

Melissa Perry (39:26):

Absolutely. And that was a clarion call. It was an opportunity for public health to rise to the occasion. I think what we can't allow to happen is that we slip back into complacency because we're not in crisis mode. And that, again, we learn valuable lessons for next time versus just observing them.

Gregory Washington (39:44):

So in a perfect world, what would be your definition of public health?

Melissa Perry (39:48):

My definition would be the opportunity for health, well-being and happiness for all. Simply put,

Gregory Washington (39:57):

Outstanding. Outstanding. Well, I can say we can't wait to see the results of the work that you are doing, your vision for our College of Public Health and where it's going and the work in your individual lab. I kept a lab going when I was a dean. What was that term you said in Albania? Are you tired?

Melissa Perry (40:17):

Are you tired? . .

Gregory Washington (40:21):

I did that. I kept a fairly large group of graduate students going during that time. And I could tell you it was tiring, but it was quite fulfilling. I really got a lot out of it personally. And my students, I was able to do right by them too. So I feel good about that time in my life. Any last parting words?

Melissa Perry (40:40):

Absolutely. I just need to gush a little bit because since coming to Mason, it's been really a lot of fun. I'm having a really great time here. I feel very, very affirmed and I feel very comfortable. And so I've been heard to say, this will make you a little bit embarrassed. But as I'm talking about our president, I say, Dr. Washington embodies the values and the vision and the empathy that we all really are inspired by. And I say that I will follow that guy anywhere, . So I'm experiencing a lot of gratitude for Mason, for the way in which I've been welcomed here for the support and excitement about public health, and just delighted to be part of this world-class university.

Gregory Washington (41:25):

I appreciate that, and I look forward to working with you as we move forward in this journey together.

Melissa Perry (41:31):

I'm really looking forward to that too.

Gregory Washington (41:33):

Well, that's going to wrap things up here at Access to Excellence. I'd like to thank Melissa Perry, the dean of the College of Public Health. I am Mason President Gregory Washington saying, until next time, stay safe, Mason Nation.

Narrator:
If you like what you heard on this podcast, go to podcast.gmu.edu for more of Gregory Washington's conversations with the thought leaders, experts, and educators who take on the grand challenges facing our students, graduates, and higher education. That's podcast.gmu.edu.

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In This Story

Melissa J. Perry, Sc.D., MHS

Podcast - EP 52: The tension between war, justice, and peace

Damian Cristodero — Mon, 11 Sep 2023 13:56:10 +0000

Podcast - EP 52: The tension between war, justice, and peace Damian Cristodero Mon, 09/11/2023 - 09:56

Professor Karina Korotelina joins Mason president Gregory Washington in the studio to discuss conflict analysis and resolution on this episode of the Access to Excellence podcast.

Photo credit:

Cristian Torres/��ӽ紫ý

Karina Korostelina, a professor of conflict analysis and resolution in Mason’s Jimmy and Rosalynn Carter School for Peace and Conflict Resolution, conducts research with global implications that not only applies to countries and groups in conflict but societies as well.

She tells Mason President Gregory Washington that Ukraine’s war with Russia, at its end, will present enormous problems with the reconciliation of people and territories. A look behind the scenes at Korostelina’s remarkable research and what it tells us about human nature and how we can find peace after conflict.

_{The study was an analysis of 15 peace processes across the globe. What I found, in addition to many other factors, was that if a nation creates multicultural, or civic — based on connection to the state — identity, then peace processes sustained. If not, if a country promotes an ethnic concept of national identity, peace processes fail.”}

Explore the Carter School for Peace and Conflict

In This Episode